Kyler Cavers Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Alright people I've had just about enough of this bs.. All I have been striving for is to be able to relax and enjoy some movies and music in either pcm uncompressed, dts hd, or dolby true hd to their full extent. I have a Pioneer Elite receiver thats about two years old and it does every possible litte thing I want it to except carry audio over hdmi. sigh............ First I go to my local dealer and he hands me a $1200 new elite to try out because I see it supports the new decoders (my current does not) so I go home and unhook my carefully organized system to hook up this expensive piece of metal that has merely 1 or 2 features more. Once set up and calibrated I pop in ZZ Top live in Texas and get all warm and fuzzy to read "DTS HD" on the screen, but to my dissapointment, nothing appears. I then realize that my source of bluray's comes from a Playstation 3 and therefore the system will be working backwards. (The PS3 needs a firmware update to support DTS HD which means it has to be sent via PCM to the receiver, which means the receiver won't decode the signal). After I switched the audio sending from bitstream to pcm I proceed to listen to some goodness. In a nutshell, the PS3 decodes and the receiver plays, all I had to do was hit select on the PS3 and notice the nice high trasfer rate beside DTS HD . So I think to myself (not realizing my older receiver can't transfer audio over HDMI) that I can kind of cheat here, because I don't have a conventional bluray player that requires a receiver to decode, I can save money and keep my receiver and just use the PS3 with the proper settings. So after spending another hour or so reconnecting my old equipment, I proceed to watch some more dtshd sharp dressed man, and to my surprise, NO AUDIO. So as it sits a brand new 09 receiver lays in a box in my entertainment room with a nice 1200 dollar price tag, and the only thing I need is the simple ability to trasfer audio over hdmi. I could keep the new receiver and give my dealer money as often as I please with little to no interest (advantage of spending 10 grand over a few years there), or I could take it back and make do. Is it worth all the trouble and money just to hear some less compressed sound? Well I'd like to think so considering I listen to Klipsch for God sake. It just never failes that you get screwed somehow, I paid 900 for my receiver when I got it new in 07, now I'd be lucky to get $350. I'm not usually one to subdue to cost and inconvinence but I've worked hard to have an extraordinary system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuyOtherSoundEquipment Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I'm not sure why the playstation wouldn't work with your old receiver, unless there's a variable there that we aren't considering. As far as the extra sound quality from DTS HD, I can't vouch for it as I have never heard it before. Take some time to compare between the sound quality from your old reciever on regular 5.1, then listen to the 09 using DTS HD, then decide if the upgrade is worth it. Does your dealer take trade-ins of any kind? Or you could just sell the reciever for whatever you can get and subtract that from the total cost of the new one, and consider the extra money spent an investment in your system. It really isn't an obscene amount of money in the long run. You've gotta pay if you want to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Buy a turntable, preamp and some tube amps or good high end solid state for a two channel rig. In ten years you will still be listening to the same system. It will probabloy cost more that what you are currently dealing with but it is worth it in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Are you positive that your old receiver can't transfer audio over HDMI? I thought all HDMI connections were both audio and video? [:^)] Is there a setting in your 'old' receiver's menu that needs to be adjusted to allow audio through HDMI by chance? {edit}Well, I read through the user's manual of your receiver and it does appear that you do need to make either a separate analog or digital connection in order to hear sound through the receiver. That sucks! One way around that would be to use a Blu-Ray player with multi-channel analog outputs and connect those to the multi-channel inputs on your receiver. That way you'd still get the HD sound formats. I guess going that route would be a lot less expensive than getting a new receiver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Honestly I dont feel its worth the hastle, a buddy of mine gets all crazy about his ht making changes far to often, and I really haven't heard any improvements. I also run a Pioneer Elite receiver in my theater and it is quite good but I honestly dont feel the Elites are going to render the full potential of DTS HD because I have tried HDCD SACD DVD-Audio DTS Audio and none of them have a profound impact on the sound. They all sound good, but none profounly better than another. My 2 channel system is a bit better revealing and I have to tell you some of my SACD are fabulous, but most of them are mixed so poorly they are just not worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Sorry, I'm with tigerwoodshorns, 2 channel rules! Sorry I can't help with your decoding issues but I did get a Pioneer DVD player from a buddy for that very reason. Too many formats, too many cable connection types for me. Thanx, Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill H. Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Kyle, If you could return the receiver and then just find a Good Audio store that specialises in Hook ups, pay them to find the solution. Cheaper than a receiver...................JMHO. Russ, You sound just like the commerical for the B*** thingy............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I have an Onkyo NR-1000 which has everything including HDMI and an Onkyo TX-DS989 which has everything except HDMI. I paid $4000 for the NR-1000 and 500 bucks for the TX-DS989. I can get by with or with out HDMI, so the question I would think about is why do you really need HDMI? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I have an Onkyo NR-1000 which has everything including HDMI and an Onkyo TX-DS989 which has everything except HDMI. I paid $4000 for the NR-1000 and 500 bucks for the TX-DS989. I can get by with or with out HDMI, so the question I would think about is why do you really need HDMI? I was thinking the same thing. Does the Playstation only have HDMI output or does it have component outs too? Is the HDMI signal out a higher resolution than the components? Here is the last interesting thing. I'm pretty sure SACD is 24/96. My CD player upsamples to 24/96 and my DAC on my server upsamples to 196 (both Musical Fidelity gear). Is SACD worth it, or Blue Ray for that matter? May want to give it a few years until the music is readily available in good quantity. I jumped into vinyl last year and now just buy albums and have not turned my server on in a long time and barely ever listen to CD's. A good TT is not cheap but the resolution and sound is amazing when done right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Or you could buy the SONY Blu Ray 550 that has analog outs for audio and keep your old pioneer have all the audio sent in all of the newer codecs and send the HDMI picture to your HDTV or Projection system. I did..and VERY happy! Dont get caught up in all the hype too much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 The PS3 has a harness that allows either HDMI or component video to be used, but not both. If you use the component cables for video, you can only output optical digital from the PS3 and that will not pass the uncompressed audio formats through it. The only way to get uncompressed audio through the PS3 is through HDMI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockOn4Klipsch Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I gave up the blu ray audio and hdmi features when i sold/traded my onkyo 805, I thought I was going to be dissappointed with the sound quality, it was the opposite. The stage one did a much better job at producing sound then the 805.I also prefer the analog section in the stage one than anything i've ever heard before. As a couple others said, if you have to have the blu ray audio, get a player with analog outs , it'll run you about 400 bucks which in my book is much cheaper then 1200 +tax. The convience of the HDMI cable is nice but IMO has really screwed this whole HT hobby up. I would go with what ever sounds best to you in you most frequent listening environment. Even though I have a BR player I still find myself renting standard DVDs. So keep that in mind aswell, which suites your ears better with the media you will listen to the majority of the time, which in my case is still SDVD's. I don't not rent a movie because it's not in blu ray, if it's in awesome, if not the SDVD will suffice. I will upgrade again to obtain the newer audio codecs but it can wait and after experiencing what Hi end gear can provide I don't see myself upgrading in the pre/pro for awhile with or without HDMI switching, my tv has 4 HDMI inputs which is plenty of video for me. When the new Oppo player arrives I can get rid of some more junk and get the new codecs back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 So glad my home is a "digital free zone" My turntable and records have served beautifully for 33 years, no end in sight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyler Cavers Posted January 14, 2009 Author Share Posted January 14, 2009 Thank you for your opinions guys, I was thinking a bit today at work about what I should do. When it comes to ht I am very picky, but I don't believe in busting my wallet for such a small gain if I can help it. Sometimes I wonder why I even own a PS3 because nearly all my games are played on Xbox 360, anyways... Ideally I think I would like a Pioneer Elite receiver and bluray to complete my system. If I was to trade in or sell my receiver/dvd player/ps3 I'd have some money to work with. I'm still not sure but I'm going to go down to my dealer and explain all of this and see if I can workout a deal on something. I like to have matching equipment and I'm almost ocd about the tidyness, organization, and performance of my system. I also want to mention that I think the new high definition decoders are only transferable over an HDMI cable from what I read. Is the difference worth it or not? Well I wish I could talk face to face with someone who knows all there is to know, the sample and transfer rates of dts hd compared to the old core dts are quite larger and you would think sounds much different. I have yet to really test the sound a/b like. I'm going to my dealer tomorrow and I will come up with something, there is nothing wrong with the sound my system has, most people I have over to watch films or what not with think I'm nuts to have purchased all of it... haha, it's a passion and a hobby, thats all I tell them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harleyfatboy Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I had similar set up..If memory serves me correctly - I went optical out of PS3 to receiver for the sound and then went HDMI out of the PS3 directly to my TV just for video...I since have change things around again but that solved my issue when I had a receiver that didnt have HDMI... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Bill H. said: "You sound just like the commerical for the B*** thingy............." Yeah, the Blose table radio. They say you don't need all that fancy equipment and confusing wiring for true audiophile sound. I've heard their system, and I can say without reservation that yes, you do! The bigger the better! Thanx, Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 It sounds like you have a good relationship with your dealer....does he know the answer to your problem? I've not kept up with HDMI at all as it's still in the early stages. Eventually all the quirks and work arounds will become known, but I think it's gonna be a while as I've tried to research HDMI recently for a friend and it gets crazy obnoxious real fast. It pains me as an engineer because really all people want is to plug it in and magically have everything work in the ideal manner. I guess I don't yet understand the reason for all the complexity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Me Loves Khorns Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I really love the sound from my McIntosh TX 134, the HT pre/pro. It came out pre hdmi. I really don't want to get rid of it any time soon. My current hdtv does not even take hdmi. When I upgrade that, I think I will run hdmi from ps3, xbox, cable etc direct to tv, and optical audio to Mac. The newest mac that does hdmi, the 136, is scary expensive.... Will have to wait a while for used one of them to come around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyler Cavers Posted January 15, 2009 Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 It's about -50 right now so I'm going to wait till the weather warms up a bit to go see my dealer lol. I understand how all of this has to work, but the biggest question I have (and no one seems to know) is how much better do the new decoders sound (DTS HD, DD TruHD) over the originals (DTS and DD)? I should call someone at Klipsch or something, someone has to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I bet damonrpayne could give you a good answer....he's very meticulous about identifying the changes he's made in his system (and has some pretty sick gear for listening on too). I seem to recall him mentioning that he prefers the sound of BluRay to all of his DVDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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