Best DIY combination? also posted in Tech questions...

[MikeMilliken]

If money is not really a problem here then why not just order some Jubilees from Klipsch and call it a day. With $10K, you'd have money left over for a pair of TADs and some killer networks.

That sounds like good advice. One forum member built himself a pair of Jubilees which turned out really well, but with all the work it took, he said he'd just buy a pair next time.

With horns, the dimensions are way more critical than with a normal box speaker, so it's easy to work carefully and still wind up with a bass bin that's just a bit off and doesn't quite perform to spec. As well, factory units will have much better resale value than home-built speakers.

Finally, with Jubilees you get the benefit of Roy Delgado's factory-tested crossover settings. The developments are still going on. Last September, he released a new program of settings which I was able to incorporate with my JubScalas. You can guess or experiment with your settings or try to get a homebuilt speaker to sound the way you want, but using factory-tested settings lets you get to listening to music much sooner.

Guys, I understand your intentions..........

But, to give you my perspective. I'd MUCH rather build them and tweak them myself at TWICE the price. I am a hobbyist, I do what I do for love, not for money. Theres no way the satisfaction I'd get would ever be the same if I just wrote a check.............

I also restore old muscle cars. I'd NEVER buy a completed car, unless I stold it........... I like working on things! Once I finish them I dont sell them. I drive them like I stold them and beat them like they were intended. making money on them has never been a consideration..........I do them as I want them.

This hobby is cheap entertainment compared to say a hot rod acrobatic plane, a 54 ' Hatteras, race cars (OMG, dropped 100K plus in one season), or even my wifes maintenance (shoes, clothes, cars, remodels;).

Thankfully, I dont really need money. I love music, wood, and maiking things better than I found them. The creation of something beautiful/precious can NEVER be compared to writing a check in my book.

I dont want any other kinds of speakers at this time Dean......I have EVERYTHING to build a full on set of Dynaudio Evidence's, and at the moment I could care less. If you want the speakers you suggested, by all means, go get them. I am trying to move towards what I WANT to do, with MY time, and MY money, and MY hobby. If it turns into a stinking pile, I'll regroup and move along. I have had great (IMO) success in building almost innumerable commercial systems in this hemisphere in addition to building over 20 complete sets for myself and my friends who had to have them......... I know how to determine what the problems with a design are, and I know how to correct them, or make compensation for them, myself. I have a 1/3 octave analyzer at my disposal and the means to use if effectively. I did sound as a living for a period, now I do it for love.

You may need to buy your toys. I can build mine, and tweak them until I am satisfied thats there nothing left in the design or no more compromises that I want to make. There is NO "perfect" speaker. As a designer, you get to decide what the compromises are, and I like that part.

From what little I know of Mr Cullison on this forum, we are kindred spirits.

Take this however you want to......I don't do what I do for people like you. I got to wonder... why are you here?

[Coytee]

Interesting response

[Coytee]

I am intrigued by the Jubilees, but I think thats infringing on Klipsch. If someone from Klipsch tells me its OK, then I's be all over it. My fascination with them is that insane (IMO) gain they have on the woofers. If there is a more effiecient speaker that can match their clarity, bandwidth, and ultimate SPL, I would LOVE to hear about it.

I'm not an attorney, but I don't think you're infriging on Klipsch if you built the bottom horn for yourself. I think they might have an issue if you started building them to sell, but I don't really know. There are more than a couple guys who have built their own Jubilee clones on the forum and Roy (Delgado of Klipsch) has been aware of some of them, even to the point of asking a question every now & then. He did not really give any advice though which would understandably be a bit counter productive to both him and the company.

I also doubt that someone from Klipsch would specifically state that it's "ok". They might give tacit approval by virtue of not saying you can't but I'd not expect them to take the time to say you can. (just my speculation)

There is a pair near you. In Orlando (I think). Guy named Eric. The worlds first irrational person who bought some Jubilees!! There has now been maybe 18 more in his footsteps. He however, has the full blown 3-way cinema version which is built for maximum SPL. Evidently, PWK wanted to take his Khorn back to a 2-way and the Jubilee was originally intended for that evolution. Point being... should you happen to hear Eric's 3-way Jubilee, you are NOT hearing what the rest of us have with the 2-way systems. This isn't to say anything negative about the 3-way at all... just making sure you realize the difference. The 2-way Jubilee typicall keeps the same midhorn (K402) the 3-way has and drops the tweeter horn (K510). The tweeter driver (K69) is then moved from the tweeter horn, down to the K402 horn. So, the 2-way loses the midrange DRIVER and the tweeter HORN, moving the tweeter driver, down to the midrange horn.

There will be a test after dinner.... [pi]

[MikeMilliken]

Thank you Coytee......

I will try to find Eric.. Orlando is within 30 minutes of me. Maybe he'll let me have a listen... I think his version would be the one I'd want, the maximum SPL is right up my alley!~

A secret I've not disclosed until now..........My intention is to use whatever I build with a Concrete horn loaded subwoofer that i intend to build into the floor of my new shop. I have 45 acres on a nice lake about 15 minutes from my current home where I intend to retire. I once saw in speaker builder I think, wont swear to it. A guy (France maybe) built a huge (IE 30plus foot length) bass horn into the the floor of his building. I have always lusted after that and I intend to do it. My difference is that mine will be outside and IN the ground, if it dont work out, I'll have an ugly swimming pool......... I won't be happy until I try, now I got to have something that can "keep up" spl and quality wise.

I have always been of the impression that "too much" is just about right.

My barn is 40 x 48 inside and has 12" ceilings. I know I'll have to add on later. I dont know anyone who has a garage thats big enough. The horn sub might end up being a grease pit, but I doubt it. I have some 15" subs made by TCI, that I plan to use in my first attempt. These drivers are over the top! 2 inches of excusion capability, I have 1 mounted in a PR box now and its pretty insane, I cant wait to hear what it can do with 10db' (or so) of gain and an acoustic coupling into the shop. Real 30hz bass at 120+ dbs should be within reach of 4 of these. Not sure why I'd ever need that, same reason I like 1000 + Hp motors in street cars I guess. Cause I can........

I dont think my system will ever be finished....It will always evolve/morph. The journey is the FUN part.

[MikeMilliken]

Forgot this......

I will try and contact Mr. Delgado. I wonder if I can buy all the parts cut, but not assembled? That might be enough for me to still love them. Wierd huh?

The only limitation's we have are self imposed.............................

I like BIG horns!

[Coytee]

I wonder if I can buy all the parts cut, but not assembled?

I'd speculate "no" and here's why... My understanding is, years ago, Klipsch let others build their cabinets (I don't know but maybe even sold a COUPLE kits??)

Anyways, my understanding is, PWK later changed his mind on that under the logic that if HIS name was going to be associated with the product, he didn't want other people building it to an unknown (to him) standard.

They're not in the business of making kits, they're in the business of selling finished speakers. I suppose it never hurts to ask though.

if you do a forum search for "6foot8" you will find Eric.

[PrestonTom]

If you have narrowed your interest to the Jubilee bass bin, have a look at the J Aud Eng Soc article (Delgado & Klipsch, 2000). There are copies of it posted on the forum if you search; however, the resolution is limited. This will give you an idea of its performance, design and an interesting background on its place re: the Klipschorn.

I appreciate the DIY mentality. I also suffer from many of its symptoms. There really is no cure.

Is there a way to take DeanG's advice about purchasing the Jubilee and still satisfy your DIY-desires? Perhaps by concentrating on how the factory cabinets can be transformed into something less "stark looking". Just a thought.

[MikeMilliken]

Tom,

Thank you for trying but... Its always been completely unsatisfying for me to just, write a check. That takes no skill, no imagination, no effort, and no talent. I WANT to do it myself, it doesnt mean much to me if it comes any other way.

Even if I got a pair for free....I wouldn't/couldn't leave them alone. I would have to dissamble them so I could understand them and then address what I saw as flaws/compromises I did not like. If it makes sense for you, fine. That dog won't hunt for me and it would not make me happy. I'd still continue down the path I am on.

Its the exact same reason I do not buy MINT musclecars.........I buy junk, no one else wants, and then I "cut it up", and make it what I always thought it should/could have been. I "tub" my cars, and then add rediculous power, they end up being almost cartoonish by the time I finish. What I am after is a Pro Mod car with tags and air conditioning. They are a beast to drive, are unruly, loud, obnoxious, suck fuel like a locomotive, and thats exactly what I was after. Alas, among my other flaws I am an adrenalin junkie, but my 50 year old body can no longer take the heat. I try to remain content by pursuing things that make me happy. Music is one of those things that can still raise the hair on the back of my neck, when its right;) My "right", is not likely the same as yours, thats what makes the world go around.

To me, its a SHAME, to ruin something that someone else would be perfectly happy with. I avoid these issues by making what I want or buying something only as an interim solution, to buy some time until I can go after what I really lust for. IE: a temporary fix. I have thought about this bass horn for about 20 years, if it was just a whim it wouldn't still be nagging me. I have never been completely satisfied with anything, and I doubt that I will ever find complete nirvana, yet the quest for it continues unabated.

[Coytee]

write a check. That takes no skill, no imagination, no effort, and no talent

Ahhhhhhhhhh, described me to a "T" [<)]

I "tub" my cars, and then add rediculous power, they end up being almost cartoonish by the time I finish. What I am after is a Pro Mod car with tags and air conditioning. They are a beast to drive, are unruly, loud, obnoxious, suck fuel like a locomotive

I'm liking you more and more...[Y]

You should post pictures of some of your projects!!

[Islander]

From what little I know of Mr Cullison on this forum, we are kindred spirits.

Take this however you want to......I don't do what I do for people like you. I got to wonder... why are you here?

"People like me"? Not that there's any need to explain myself to you, but I'm here because I like Klipsch speakers and how close to "live" my favourite music sounds through them. I've learned a great deal from other forum members, as you also seem to be here to do.

Some members as well as myself have suggested easier or simpler ways to get what you seem to want, but if the process is as important to you as the result, that's fine.

I understand that this hobby, like others, has many facets, and building speakers, or experimenting with crossovers, or finding the perfect set of vintage speakers, or whatever, is just as important and valid to some members as simply listening to music. It took me a few years to get my system to its present state and it was fun getting here. I didn't just write a cheque, I found components from all over and was able to assemble a system over time that makes me happy every time I turn it on.

Since you posted to get some advice, I'd suggest that the 3-way cinema-type Jubilee might better suit your purposes than the 2-way home version because of its ability to play louder in a large room.

As for J Cullison being a kindred spirit with you, he's an enthusiastic experimenter and a gentleman, so I guess you're half-way there.

[Guest " "]

#3. Should I just do a Jubilee or a WMW/MTM instead? I want the BEST sound I can get and I have a BIG ROOM

why not a pair of MCM Grand 4's.......

[MikeMilliken]

why not a pair of MCM Grand 4's.......

Do you got the plans for em?

[MikeMilliken]

Take this however you want to......I don't do what I do for people like you. I got to wonder... why are you here?

"People like me"? Not that there's any need to explain myself to you, but I'm here because I like Klipsch speakers and how close to "live" my favourite music sounds through them. I've learned a great deal from other forum members, as you also seem to be here to do.

NO PAT! NOT YOU!

Not people like you.........You are gracious and decent. I am grateful for "people like you", my comment was never meant for you. I completely understand why you are here. Pat, if I have offended you in any way, please accept my apology, I never meant you any harm.

There are however, some others here who are just JERKS, every forum has a couple trolls lurking around and this one is no exception.

There are great people, who share our passion, good friends of mine, that will not waste their time in this forum anymore, because "trolls" give them such a hard time. I have no tolerance for aholes. We as a colective group are missing out on some great minds because of intolerance here. I think thats a shame.

I am quick to the gun.......and there is some people I just don't like. Life is not a popularity contest and I am def not trying to win. Ever met someone and wanted to punch them in the face before they ever said a word? Then after they opened their mouth, it was all you could do to not do them great bodily harm on the spot? I give as good as I get.

I suspect I am not alone here......Music appeals to our emotions. people who tend to react to stimulus like music as most of us do (otherwise WHY are you here, if not for the love of music) are likely to be "sensitive". Now I do not mean this in the way you might be thinking. The pursuit of high fidelity. if you think about it, is the pursuit of an emotion... The music "reaches" you in same way that it does not affect most other people.

The avg Joe.......Could probably care less about his stereo, rather in his car or home, yet for US it is a passion.

Thats what I am talking about.

[Blvdre]

A secret I've not disclosed until now..........My intention is to use whatever I build with a Concrete horn loaded subwoofer that i intend to build into the floor of my new shop. I have 45 acres on a nice lake about 15 minutes from my current home where I intend to retire. I once saw in speaker builder I think, wont swear to it. A guy (France maybe) built a huge (IE 30plus foot length) bass horn into the the floor of his building. I have always lusted after that and I intend to do it. My difference is that mine will be outside and IN the ground, if it dont work out, I'll have an ugly swimming pool......... I won't be happy until I try, now I got to have something that can "keep up" spl and quality wise.

You will most definitely be the envy of every kid (forum member) on the block. You were not imagining things

[DrWho]

Sounds like an interesting project.

The Jubilee is an awesome
speaker for sure, but if you're willing to go all out crazy style, then
I might suggest avoiding folded horns altogether and sticking to
straight horns. This will avoid all of the pathlength differences and
discontinuities in the expansion rate - which will mean smoother
frequency response, lower distortion, and wider bandwidth...

Since
you mentioned some insane subwoofage, might I ask what your design
goals are? Like how loud do you plan on listening and what bandwidth
are you aiming for? What kind of music will you be listening to and what kind of electronics fancy your pallette?

I think something like a K402 for the tweeter
combined with a "midbass" to transition down to the upper limit of your
concrete sub would sound very awesome. This would effectively be a
3-way system....I'm not sure if there's much to be gained by 4-way
unless you're looking for more SPL, or more prominent highs. The
D'Appolito configuration is
good for extra control of the vertical polars, but a sufficiently sized
horn can achieve the same result or even outperform it. Moving to more
drivers certainly increases the maxSPL, but I think you would achieve
better results by manifold loading instead of pursuing an MTM alignment
(or WMTMW or whatever). You might also consider something like the
Synergy Horns that Tom Danley has been designing...see page 3 of this
article:

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/danley_tapped.pdf

A papa version built into your huge subwoofer might yield interesting results...

Btw,
are you willing to invest in acoustic treatment of your room too? The
room-speaker interface will have a very large influence on the
perceived sound quality and could very likely affect the ideal speaker
design. Basically, the more free variables you have, the more you can
steer the compromises.

And are you planning on just straight up 2-channel listening or a surroud sound experience?

As far as drivers, the ideal choices will depend very greatly on the
design goals you set forth and the topologies you choose for addressing
those goals. You started off asking about Cornscalas, so perhaps I'm
going way overboard, but I don't think it would be very hard at all to
way outperform them.

Btw, are you related in any way to William and Douglas Milliken who forged the science of race car vehicle dynamics?

http://www.millikenresearch.com/

[Islander]

NO PAT! NOT YOU!

Not people like you.........You are gracious and decent. I am grateful for "people like you", my comment was never meant for you. I completely understand why you are here. Pat, if I have offended you in any way, please accept my apology, I never meant you any harm.

There are however, some others here who are just JERKS, every forum has a couple trolls lurking around and this one is no exception.

Thanks for your apology and kind words, Mike. Postings are sometimes ambiguous and taken the wrong way, but you took the trouble to clear up the misunderstanding. I appreciate that. Yes, we do have the occasional troll, but Amy notices and cracks the whip if they get out of hand.

[Islander]

The Jubilee is an awesome speaker for sure, but if you're willing to go all out crazy style, then I might suggest avoiding folded horns altogether and sticking to straight horns. This will avoid all of the pathlength differences and discontinuities in the expansion rate - which will mean smoother frequency response, lower distortion, and wider bandwidth...

Did somebody say "straight horns"?

[Islander]

Three-quarter view.

[Coytee]

Yes, we do have the occasional troll, but Amy notices and cracks the whip if they get out of hand.

I've been waiting & waiting for Amy to whip me but she keeps telling me I've not been a very bad boy yet.... [:^)]

[MikeMilliken]

Sounds like an interesting project.

The Jubilee is an awesome speaker for sure, but if you're willing to go all out crazy style, then I might suggest avoiding folded horns altogether and sticking to straight horns. This will avoid all of the pathlength differences and discontinuities in the expansion rate - which will mean smoother frequency response, lower distortion, and wider bandwidth...

Since you mentioned some insane subwoofage, might I ask what your design goals are? Like how loud do you plan on listening and what bandwidth are you aiming for? What kind of music will you be listening to and what kind of electronics fancy your pallette?

I think something like a K402 for the tweeter combined with a "midbass" to transition down to the upper limit of your concrete sub would sound very awesome. This would effectively be a 3-way system....I'm not sure if there's much to be gained by 4-way unless you're looking for more SPL, or more prominent highs. The D'Appolito configuration is good for extra control of the vertical polars, but a sufficiently sized horn can achieve the same result or even outperform it. Moving to more drivers certainly increases the maxSPL, but I think you would achieve better results by manifold loading instead of pursuing an MTM alignment (or WMTMW or whatever). You might also consider something like the Synergy Horns that Tom Danley has been designing...see page 3 of this article:
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/danley_tapped.pdf
A papa version built into your huge subwoofer might yield interesting results...

Btw, are you willing to invest in acoustic treatment of your room too? The room-speaker interface will have a very large influence on the perceived sound quality and could very likely affect the ideal speaker design. Basically, the more free variables you have, the more you can steer the compromises.

And are you planning on just straight up 2-channel listening or a surroud sound experience?

As far as drivers, the ideal choices will depend very greatly on the design goals you set forth and the topologies you choose for addressing those goals. You started off asking about Cornscalas, so perhaps I'm going way overboard, but I don't think it would be very hard at all to way outperform them.

Btw, are you related in any way to William and Douglas Milliken who forged the science of race car vehicle dynamics?
http://www.millikenresearch.com/

Hi Mike!

LOTSA stuff here!

Before I get all into this, I'd like to say, you did a nice job on the article you wrote on setting up subwoofers for HT. Very nice job of taking it down to "laymens" terms. Sometimes thats difficult, when your audience is all of unknown basis for what you are trying to explain. I never thought of reversing the phase and trying to tune for minimum bass, thats pretty ingenius;) I've sent that to several non-audiophile friends who call me a lot;)

Ok , meat & potatoes...Theres a couple things going on, My first BIG part of my shop system will be the big bass horn, it wont be folded but once, and then only because I'd like to use the backwave. So, my intention is to make it do a U, you with me?

My building is 40 x 48 x 12, I should say at least....... I think I'll go bigger so consider that a minimum. There will be some acoustic traetment in the but not a lot, cause its main function is to store my old hot rods, tractor,and the boats when we have hurricanes. Its all reinforced concrete, so it will have a huge echo problem. I want the huge system in there for parties, so we can hear it out on the lake which is immediately behind the building.This place is very private, behind the lake is a big hill/orange grove with an elevation change of like 500' so the whole area is like a giant amphitheatre. The neighbors , of which there are few are our buddies. Our building is at the lakes edge, where the stage on a GIANT theatre would be. I plan to have a 10' x 20' termination on the low bass horn. I mid bass horn is easily do able as well it would be right in the throat/termination of the big horn, along with the mids/tweet.

Any way we party out there and no one cares.....I dont want to lug around PA's I want to set this up use it when I am in the shop, turn it up when we are outside, and have parties in the building as well.

It will be 2 channel....We have multiple audio systems in our home and HT already. The electronics will be a bunch of old Carver stuff I've had for years. So it'll have clean source material, but not SOTA. My turntable/MC cartridges/albums and really good electronics were wiped out in a flood, some day.... I'll replace them.

I'll have a look at your Danley labs, and I plan to build something as an interim that I can use for a PA later.. I'll never do those pretty horns you sent, they look very fragile! Mine will be straight horns (cept for the low bass one) and some variation of Tractrix/Square on termination. I'll place them inside the throat of the big horn to maximize my space in the shop. The round horns would be tough to fabricate!

I am ready to build the building.....the side facing the lake will be open except for piers between the roll up doors, the bass horns will be directly opposite. I know I'll have to run an EQ to compensate for the sound when we are outside and thats no problem. I have not even done the calculations on the bass horn, nor have I decided on the drivers. I have been watching others projects and trying to figure out why they are not getting the expected gain from their horns. I am perplexed as to why........ I got to get up on horn theory!

Until I "catch up" on the horn design, specifically the folded type, I plan to build a dual bass bin cornscala as an interim solution in a modular format. Seperate bass bin's so they are easier to move, I plan to use the big horn you spoke of with a "yet to be determined" driver and a "yet to be determined" tweeter. So I guess its not really a Cornscala...... but a modified version with a big mid horn and some tweeter.

I have some idea's rolling around.........Ever seen an ATC 3" dome midrange? They have relatively high sensitivity for a DR at 96, very flat smooth response, they take a load of power with the 3" VC, I can lower the FS with a mod/larger resonance chamber on the back. It couldn't be used as an upper bass mid, because it cant go that low, but it is smooth as silk, and if I could build the right horn for it and get the gain up to say +7db...It would be a dandy driver. What are your thoughts on that? They dont go into compression of signal until well over 125 as a DR, so they are quite impressive and again SMOOTH !

The TCI drivers I have are insane subs.... I am not above having them specifically make what I need for the low bass horns, they are near me here in Florida. Their drivers are just gorgeous, ever seen one?

The Mid bass driver should be relatively easy to source..its the tweeter thats bugging me. I am very picky on tweeters. Theres very very few that I like and I have played with around 100 different ones over the years. I HATE Piezo's, the little EV's, and most every compression tweter I have ever heard (yeah, I know...) I seem to be hyper sensitive to the 4K-12K region and I can usually hear real well up past that, piezo hiss drives me batty. I can tell if they are on in a club as soon as I open the door. I am still doing sound for a local group and I detest the tweeters in the Mackies we use.

This is a personal issue I have on the treble sensitivity, any "graininess" at all just ruins it for me. Personal favorite tweeters are Scan Speak Revelators, Dynaudio T 330's, Several ribbons, even cheap ones usually seem pretty nice, Some of the cheap Vifa's sound smooth to me, as well as the older peerless/ADS look alikes, and I do like the old ADS tweeter's. In order to make something listenble for me, I generally spend days on passive filters and end up with reduced output and I take the "life" out of the tweeter, so thats a hard fix............

Its been easier for me to just get a better one than to try to "voice" one I dont like. The stuff I like the sound of is so far down on sensitivity I cant use it......I have used horn loaded Dynaudio's in clubs before, I just made line arrays (D28's) and just got to put power to them, they take it just fine. But they wont get the kind of SPL I am looking for;(

Man I am rambling........