New "bottlehead" looking to get into Klipsch

[33RPM]

Hello,

I'm a long-time audiophile and electronic buff who is just getting into the whole DIY audio thing. I recently built two Bottlehead kits (S.E.X. - 2WPC SET w/ 6DN7 tubes, and Seduction Phono w/ 6922's, 36dB gain), so my thoughts are now turning to high-sensitivity speakers. My system consists of the two aforementioned tube stages, a Marantz CD-67SE CD player, a Denon DM500 turntable, an Apple TV (upgraded to 250GB), and a Harmon-Kardon SACD/DVD-A player). I typically only listen to CD's and LP's throught the aforementioned turntable and Marantz CDP; the Apple TV and Harmon-Kardon don't sound very good through their analog outs. Speakers are a pair of Polk Audio RTi A1's (cherry) on 30" stands. Headphones include Beyerdynamic DT880's and Grado SR-225's. Listening occurs nearfield, and at generally low volumes (<85dB) as I live in a small apartment. Music tastes are mostly classic rock and straight-ahead jazz from the 50's-1970 (Miles Davis, Bill Evans, Mingus, Coltrane, etc).

Now for the questions: I figure that my S.E.X. amp puts out 1.8 or 1.9W at full power @ 8ohms, judging by the 6DN7 tubes and stock iron. The Polks I have right now were measured by Stereophile as having 90dB 1W/1M sensitivity on-axis. From my listening position (3M away), they don't get very loud and will begin to clip once the volume is way up. The Polks also have a freaky 3.8 ohm dip in the mid-bass region, which isn't good for a SET amp with such a low damping factor (the S.E.X. uses no NFB). This has made me think about either a) getting some Klipsch speakers, preferably in the 95dB+ range, or building some Voight pipes and going the single-driver (Fostex/Lowther) route.

Alas, I recently picked up a pair of open-box Synergy B-3 bookshelves from "Worst Buy" (out of sheer curiosity) and was not impressed at all. Granted, these are the cheap siblings of the better Klipsch offerings, but I was quite disappointed. They sounded thin and did not image well, and I could detect a boxy resonance on certain midbass notes. The sensitivity, which is quoted as 93.5dB 1W/1M, also seemed overstated, as the Klipsches were only a hair louder than the Polks when driven by about a watt. Needless to say, I returned them. I'm now confused over whether I should go the Klipsch route - I'm assuming that the cheaper speakers are NOT indicative of Klipsch's "house sound" on more expensive models? I like my Polks, but they sound a little lifeless in the treble, and obviously, are not quite sensitive enough for a SET amp.

So, the question is: given my apparent dislike for the Synergy series, and the fact that I'm running a low-powered SET, would something like the WF-35 floorstanders, or the RF series (RF-52, etc) do that much better? Believe me, I would love to get some Heritage speakers, but frankly, don't have the room for big KHorns or Cornwalls. I've thought about the Heresys, but have heard mixed things about them and am not a fan of their size (too big to be a bookshelf, too small to be a floorstander). I'm especially interested in hearing if anybody has the newer Icon floorstanders, as both BB and Abt Electronics has them (and are 15 minutes away).Though I've gone in and heard the Icon bookshelves at BB, the SS amp they were running them on sucked, and I'm rather sure that the CD-R they played was sourced from crappy, 128kbps MP3 files. Thus, it's been really hard to judge what they sound like with proper (let alone tubed) equipment and sources. The Icons (WF-34 or 35) are small enough to fit in my tiny living room, and won't look out of place with my other dark-colored wood furniture (though WAF is not currently an issue, I'm always thinking ahead....).Bass is not an issue with me - I care most about midrange/treble smoothness, imaging, and realism, not house-shaking thumps.

Suggestions? Do I go Klipsch, or should I go DIY? Has anybody paired the WF-34 or 35's with tubes? Thanks for any advice - and sorry for the long post!

[Mallette]

Welcome to the most brutally honest bunch of gentlemen (and a few ladies) in the madness that is Klipsch.

You need Klipschorns.

On the Seduction, Rick Rigler (Tubesnhorns) loaned me his. Nothing to say about. What I mean is that it was perfect. Did what it's supposed to do, nothing but amplify. Loved it.

He and another Forum Freak, pauln, brought at couple of 3 watt Bottlehead SETS that same time, and they drove them bit 'ol horns just fine. However, even with their efficiency a pipe organ will tax them in the bass at high SPL's.

Dave

[33RPM]

I'd love a pair of Klipschorns, but they'll have to wait until I live in an actual house. Two of those would literally take up 1/2 of my living room - not to mention that the room dimensions are way too small. I'll be looking to acquire some, eventually.....

In the interim, that's why I've had my eyes on the smaller offerings (Reference and Icon). Even though they're not 104dB 1W/1M efficient like the Klipschorns, I think I'll be happy if I can reach 95 or 96dB without clipping. After all, I listen at a rather feeble volume, but do want to have the latent capacity for higher SPL's if friends visit or if I move to a townhouse, where neighbors will be less of an issue (which may happen this year).

[jamesV]

Welcome to the forum.

For what you are looking for I still wouldn't count out the mighty Heresy. Small in size but big in sound. Plus they can be had for about $400.

You do have some nice gear. I have looked at the BottleHead stuff but never heard any.

James

[skonopa]

Last summer, I did get to hear some of the Icon offerings while in Indy, and thought they sounded really good. However, they were driving them through SS gear, not SET amplification. I guess the only real suggestion is to go ahead and take a pair home and try them out. If you don't like them, go ahead and return them, as Worst Buy does seem to have a decent return policy when it comes to things like this. We could go on and on about thier virtues and what-have-ya, but when it comes right down to it, the only way to truely find out is for you to actually try them yourself, on your equipment and in your room. But I do have to admit - if somebody was looking for a good bookshelf speaker, I'd certainly recommend at least trying out the Icon ones.

[artto]

Heresys with those amps in a small room as you've described should be fine for most things. You could always add a small powered sub to take some of the load off of the flee amps when needed.

[artto]

I should also add that I in fact did have klipschorns in an apartment living room where they took up half the space. Not much fun. It doesn't do the speakers any justice. And all your neighbors will hate you. Even if they like you they will hate you. [8o|]

[33RPM]

You know, I've thought a lot about the Heresys, but have heard about as many concerning things about them as good things when reading online posts/reviews. Comments seem to range from "good for SETs," "image well," and "very clean,"to "honky," "sharp sounding," "bass shy," "poorly designed enclosures" etc. From what I understand, the III's have been updated and improved (new woofers, better crossovers, better risers, 3dB sensitivity increase, and much of what I see seems to pertain to the older models.

So here's some more questions, then. Do the Hereseys really image well, given that they sit so close to the floor and are 3-way speakers? Are the mids/highs smooth, or are they harsh? Do they really cut off below 100Hz as everybody claims? And finally, are the new III's that much better than older models?

I'm also wondering which speaker I'd be better off with for older rock and jazz: the Icon floorstanders, or the Heresys? The former are much "cooler" looking and probably have better bass, while the latter would be about 2x the volume at a full 2W, since they're rated as being 3.5dB more efficient (95.5+3=98.5dB for the Icons, and 99+3=102dB for the Heresey III). I have a feeling that the Heresys are better suited for SET amps?

Thanks for the advice! I hope to become a proud Klipsch owner as soon as I decide what to audition and/or order. I don't know of any Heritage dealers nearby, though...

[33RPM]

Even though I haven't lived here long enough to know my neighbors (and few of them seem to speak English, anyway), I have a feeling that with Klipschorns, they would especially hate me. Listening to Coltrane belt out "A Love Supreme" at 106dB would be quite the icebreaker, don't you think? []

[Marvel]

I have a pair of Heresy IIs, with the original crossovers. They are in my bedroom,the largest room in my house, and powered with an H/K430. Bass is great! Keep telling myself to hook up my 2A3 amps which drive my LaScalas, but am too lazy. The H/K is barely up to get room iflling volume.

FWIW, I would consider the original Heresy to be a bit forward in the mids, probably due to the larger driver (same as the Khorn and LS). To my ears, the HII is more balanced. I imagine the HIII is even more so, with even better bass.

Bruce

[russ69]

33 1/3,

I have a pair of RF-25s that I run with a pair of Quicksilver PP amps. I don't play loud but the RF-25s are a very nice sounding loudspeaker even when played at around one watt. I've just ordered a pair of Heresys but it this point I have no idea how they will sound. See my thread on SET amps for Heresys and see if your questions get answered. http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/117365/1186309.aspx#1186309

My thought that the main complaint with Heresys were the bass region, I have a sub so that was not an issue for me and I don't have room for the larger cornwalls. I also thought that if the Heresys were designed to be a center channel for Khorns that they would be good enough as stand alones. I can't wait to get mine.

You also questioned how well the Klipsch image. My RF-25s are very nice sounding with tube gear but they do not image any where near as well as my Triangle Celius or my brothers 3.6 Maggies. I'm not sure any horn system does. If I was running flea powered gear, the Heresys (and other Heritage systems) would be the ones I look at, unless I had enough money for some Avantguards.........

Thanx, Russ

[jbsl]

What about Fortes or Fortes II ? I think they are around 98 and 99 Db they may work.

[jamesV]

33rpm,

You have a great shop to check out for Klipsch speakers. Simply Stereo in Hoffman Estates, they have the currently line up of Reference and Heritage speakers, of course this was true the last time that I was out that way.

Lake Bluff is about an hour away and I have a pair of HI that I might be willing to take out for you to listen to. Only thing is this coming week and weekend might not me good for me. If you want send me a pm thru here and we can talk.

James

[33RPM]

Yes, I just noticed the place in Hoffman Estates when searching the product pages and dealer locater. I grew up in Streamwood (near the Hoffman Estates/South Barrington border, actually), which is where my folks still live. Thus, I plan on paying Simply Stereo a visit next time I go home for a weekend. I may go tomorrow to check out the Icons at Abt in Glenview - the BB/Magnolia nearby (Vernon Hills) is probaby the worst place to audition speakers. They have them improperly placed, hooked up to shrill-sounding, hiigh-wattage SS amps, and play what sounds like poorly-encoded MP3 schlock when you ask to hear something. No wonder why I wasn't thrilled with anything I heard there (the Icon WF-14 bookshelves sounded good, but a bit "off" to me - now I know why).

[Colin]

The 3.8 ohm dip is murder on tube amps

Horns need to be pointed at the back of your head to image properly, but they should do it better than cone drivers

Synergy models are not representative of what big ole horns can do

I think Heresies have the sonic qualities audiophiles are looking for

A sub is also a great idea – makes a big improvement in movies and music

The complaints about Hereseys and Fortes are the same about Klipsch’s bigger horns

From what you describe of your tastes, you will need to tweak the Hereseys, but the result should be superb

There are some older Klipsch models, like KG 2s and Quartets, that go for a song because people don’t know what they are- just ask us if you see a pair, they should both be in your price range

[paully]

No problem with power. I do like my Paramounts better though. But more to the point as the Chorus II are too big for your space buy the Heresy. We're talking $400 and if you don't like them then just sell them for $400. You will only lose shipping if you can't find them locally. Then if you like them updgrade the crossover with Bob Crites. I think you will like them plenty. And if you can build a S.E.X. amp you can tweak the Heresy's by dampening the horns if you want to, upgrading the crossover, etc... But its not like you are going to lose money if you buy a pair so why not?

[33RPM]

Thanks for the convincing arguments regarding the Heresys. I may go ahead and pick up a used pair, as has been suggested, and then work on damping them and building new crossovers. I had planned on building my own speakers anyway (and may still) but I am leaning more towards getting Klipsches as opposed to dealing with building Voight pipes. My thinking is that the single-driver approach is not without its own problems, such as IM distortion, since the cone is trying to reproduce so many frequencies at once, rolled-off highs despite the use of a whizzer cone (unless a supertweeter is used - but now, it's a 2-way), beaming of HF's, low max. SPLs, tiny cone incursions, etc. Just one look at the frequency response curve on Fostex drivers gives me te creeps - it's anything but linear!

One benefit to the single-driver approach is that the Fostex drivers only dip down to about 7 ohms, and stay above 8 most of the time, making them an easy load for the amp (I currently have mine wired to use the 8 ohm taps on the parafeed autoformers). My Polks dip down to 3.8 ohms around 250Hz, which is bad! How are Klipsch speakers in this regard? I can't seem to find any published data.....

[jcmusic]

33RPM do your self a favor and get a pair of Forte II's, you will not be disappointed. 99db @ 1watt @ 1meter. I have had Fostex single drivers and others the Forte's smoke them. BTW what type of tubes do you like in your Seduction? I am using a Seduction as pre for my tape deck.

Jay

[33RPM]

I've thought about the Forte II's, and saw a pair on "ePay" that I almost bid on (but then, in typical eBay style, the price shot up and with shipping, would have been a ripoff). I haven't heard many things about them - how are they compared to the Heresys? I would assume similar-sounding mids and treble, but much better bass. The -3dB point on the Forte II's is 32Hz, if I recall, which is almost an octave lower than the Heresys (58Hz?).

In terms of tubes, I'm using the included Electro Harmonix 6922's in the Seduction. I just finished the kit 4 days ago, so I haven't started tube rolling just yet. These are new tubes and sound fine to my ears, though - low noise, and not very microphonic. There's only the slightest bit of hum at the highest volume on the S.E.X. amp, but I'm thinking it's my cartridge more than anything (AT 120E). Hum was much worse with my Grado Blue! I'm running the 6922's without the RF shields, as I've found that I don't need them (i.e., there is no more noise in the signal with them off as opposed to on). Before I tube swap to some other 6DJ8 type, I may do the C4S upgrade, which supposedly raises gain by about 4dB (40dB vs. 36 stock). My only beef with the Seduction is that the gain is somewhat low - I may eventually have to put a Foreplay III in between it and the S.E.X. (or, simply get more sensitive speakers!). I'd rather sink money into some Klipsch speakers before going the pre-amp route, though, as everything else in my playback chain won't benefit (my CD player is quite loud and drives the S.E.X. with no problem).

[jcmusic]

I've thought about the Forte II's, and saw a pair on "ePay" that I almost bid on (but then, in typical eBay style, the price shot up and with shipping, would have been a ripoff). I haven't heard many things about them - how are they compared to the Heresys? I would assume similar-sounding mids and treble, but much better bass. The -3dB point on the Forte II's is 32Hz, if I recall, which is almost an octave lower than the Heresys (58Hz?).

It is no contest, the Forte's sound like Heresys's on steroids. With the Heresys's you need a sub, with the Forte's there is almost too much bass. Great speaker they are just all over the Heresys's.

Jay