Audible Nectar Posted February 17, 2002 Share Posted February 17, 2002 According to the tube-a-holics on the forum, the tube gear yields excellent sound with the Heritage classics, especially at low wattage (compared to SS gear). If you are going HT, can tube gear be a part of the equation, without taking out a second mortgage (5 channels minimum)? What about preamps? Are HT preamps available in tubes?? Can tube amps be used effectively with SS preamps, or is it a waste of time trying to mix the two? I ask because I see the recommendations, but to us HT addicts, tubes may not even be an option. I haven't seen a tube HT preamp (and if one exists, it's probably very expensive). Thoughts, anyone?? ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted February 17, 2002 Share Posted February 17, 2002 http://www.audioelectronicsupply.com/products/AEHTML/kits/se_5kit.htmlTubes can be, but you'll want very high efficiency. BTW, that's about how much I have in my Parasound amps. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundog Posted February 17, 2002 Share Posted February 17, 2002 I use a Dynaco stereo tube preamp to play music through my Khorns. I put it to the direct inputs of my transistor receiver. I am very pleased with the results. Movie surround channels don't usually carry that much musical material and DVD video sound is not up to the highest standards, so I find they play quite well thru my Outlaw receiver. The addition of a quality 16/44.1 to 24/96 conversion engine and DAC and the Dynaco did improve the sound of my CDs. The Dynaco also allows me to play LPs. I am also running two channels of my SACDs through the Dynaco and the direct inputs of the receiver. Most of the music comes from the front speakers on SACDs. I don't think I need to bother with tubes for the ambiance and audience reaction carried on the surrounds. I may experiment with a tube preamp on the center channel, however. Tubes seem to be most effective in the preamp stage along as they are fed into a quality transistor amp. Some people claim this combo is even more desirable than an all tube set up as transistors pack more "umph" in the bass region. I don't think there is as much to be gained feeding a transistor preamp into a tube amp and I don't think you're going to find a multi-channel tube A/V pre/pro. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted February 17, 2002 Author Share Posted February 17, 2002 Things that make you go hmmmmmmm Thanks for posting that, John. I've got lots of questions. This peaks my interest, although it's not feasible right now (I've yet to obtain the oak Fortes or Chorus needed for my two surrounds). However, I'm excited and curious, so I have lots of questions for you tube - a- holics out there... I have one system that must do it all. IOW, it must be great in 2 channel as well as 5 channel - and I cannot allocate space (or funds) on a second system right now. My system as of now... - Outlaw 750 (could be sold for most of the $1100 that I paid for it, to get the 5 channel tube). - Outlaw 950 preamp, when it is released - I can refuse the delivery of the unit when Outlaw calls - before they ship it, if there is a better way to go on a $900 budget, I would like to know about it. Currently using an H/K receiver as pre/pro. - Cornwall IIs as mains - Academy center - Will be Chorus or Forte as surrounds - DVD, VCR, Cable box, Computer sound card So, this amp must be suitable for MY application and musical taste....I like rock and roll mostly, and need the 2 channels to "rock the house" so to speak...105db output is plenty sufficient in 2 channel. I've only got a 14 X 17 listening room - but would like to plan for a larger room in the future - IOW, I want the amp to be "more than enough" (more upgrade proof). I realize that tube watts are not the same as SS watts, and have been following along with the tube threads in an attempt to get educated. Am I asking too much of tube amps for my rock and roll tastes?? (I've asked this before, but I'll ask again, since reinforcing this would really ease my mind about going with a SET amp). I have a subwoofer, and I'm assuming that SS amplification is the way to go for that. So the tubes are only being asked to amplify everything but the low bass, I'm assuming that the tubes will be less "worked" to do what I need them to do. Preamp: Can I effectively use a surround pre/pro such as the Outlaw (or any other clean sounding pre/pro out there) in combination with the tubes? Only having space and funds for one system, going SS on the HT preamp would make life easier. I'm looking at the specs for the AES SE-5 tube amp, which reads - Input Sensitivity: 1V for Full Power Output - Input Impedance: 150Kohms So, what preamps would be desirable to "match" up to the AES SE5? What range of numbers am I looking for in terms of output from the preamp? Oh so many questions! But it's the "fault" of the tube- a - holics for raving about the Klipsch Heritage - SET tube amp combo! So, now that I've seen the AES SE-5 literature, and all of the talk in the forum about tubes, and the wheels in my mind start turning......well, you get the idea. The input of the tube - a -holics would be much appreciated. Can I do this??? Is this 5 channel SET tube amp the key to audio bliss????? ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundog Posted February 18, 2002 Share Posted February 18, 2002 Initial reviews by beta testers of the new Outlaw 950 pre/pro are so outstanding that I would give it a try if I were you. Hold on to your 750 and see how it sounds with the 950. Of course you probably know they are coming out with a 7 channel power amp also - the 770. I bought my first Outlaw 1050 receiver because someone on this site said he thought it was the "closest thing to a tube sound" he had heard. With the CD processing devices I have the 1050 sounds awfully good with all my speakers including my Khorns. The addition of the Dynaco preamp added a little added warmth - more on some recordings than others. It also allows me to play LPs. A number of posters have found that very good solid state works fine with old horns and claim there is not much difference - its a matter of taste. I recently bought an old EICO HF-81 integrated tube amp that I hope to revamp and try out; just to see. From the reviews, the quality of the 950 seems to be near the best; if you decide to try it let us all know what you think. It is very tempting, I reserved one but, like you, I may not decide to complete the order. If you decide to sell your 750, I might be interested; it is another Outlaw "home run". Check out the reviews at: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47941 And comments at: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47609 ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems This message has been edited by soundog on 02-18-2002 at 09:49 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted February 18, 2002 Author Share Posted February 18, 2002 Thanks for both responses, soundog. I've been all over the beta tester reviews on the Home Theater Forum. I am watching all of these comments closely. The initial comments look really promising, especially those from the Lexicon owner. While the 950 appears to have a couple of feature shortcomings (mostly dealing with time delay settings and memory storage of sub levels for different inputs), the unit seems to be a winner in the sound area, where it is most important (super clean!!). I plan to order the 950 (unless more negatives are discovered that would change my mind), but it looks very promising. I am only going 5 channels for now - if I end up with 7 later, I'll likely add the ATI 1502 to get 7 channels (assuming that I stay SS). This will not happen anytime soon - not as long as I am living in my current residence. The tube idea is mostly asking questions...there's been so much talk of tubes, I feel that I may be missing out by not investigating. I want to be sure of the path that I am taking, while I am still in the "building" stage with my HT. I really need to get to one of the Chicago Horn Club listening sessions, to give the horns and tubes a listen. That will answer many of these questions. I've got a good feeling about the 750/950 combo though. If I don't go the tube route, I will then use that money to upgrade the subwoofer setup - I did underpurchase on my sub just a bit. I can put 1300-1500 additional into the tubes, or the sub kit (the SVS CS+ pair is looking good, too). That will get my HT into the world of the "largemouth bass"...... When I get the 950, you can count on a report. Dave ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 18, 2002 Share Posted February 18, 2002 Oh this is too easy, as follows: Get yerself 3 tubes preamps, 5 tube monoblocks, one sub and 5 Klipsch speakers of your choice. Using the built in decoder on your DVD player (or a separate one if you prefer) my Sony NS900 DVD/SACD player has a nice one so I would use that. Connect one pre to the front left and right outputs of the player, one to the rear left and right and one to the center. Now you have monoblocks running each and every component and individual volume controls for front, rear and centre /sub (connect the sub via the fronts and use its own volume control). I would suggest you mate this setup to 5 2a3 monoblocks, 4 KHorns, one Belle (Centre speaker) and the sub(s) of your choice. Should make quiet a nice surround sound music system as well!!!!! Not all that cheap though - how big was your room again? All this can be matched to a CRT projector for a true cinematic experience - hell you could charge entrance. ------------------ 2 * Heresy 2 (mains) 2 * Homemade horn speakers (rears) 1 * REL Strata 3 sub Accuphase E211 amp. Tube monoblocks with separate pre-amp (solid state). Marantz CD6000 player Sony NS900 SACD/DVD player Stax Headphones Humax 5400 digital satellite receiver Sharp Video 32" Sony flat screen 16:9 TV Mogami interconnects Silver Synergistic speaker cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobman Posted February 18, 2002 Share Posted February 18, 2002 Soundog: How do you like you Dynaco PAS4? I am looking at one of those and also an AMC pre. I need a phono stage, and it must be tubed. Thanks Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundog Posted February 18, 2002 Share Posted February 18, 2002 Max- The system you propose would certainly outperform anything found in most of today's cineplex theaters! Think you could, therefore, charge more than $9.50? Jobman - I think it is a great modernization of the classic PAS-3 design. I would agree with most of these reviews by consumers: http://www.audioreview.com/pscAmplification/Preamplifiers/Dynaco,Pas,4/PRD_118264_1591crx.aspx dnd- Did you catch this paragraph in the John Morris review? Make no mistake about it! The 950 is an incredible sounding, full featured, preamp processor equal to those costing many times its' meager $899 introductory price. In direct comparison to the B&K Ref 30, I thought that for CD and SACD music playback, the 950 was superior. For 5.1/7.1 movie playback, the 950 was at least as good and better in most modes due to the DPL2 implementation which greatly improved playback for DPL and DD 2.0 soundtracks. Most folks, me included, will not need to even consider a music preamp or seperate 2 channel system. The 950 is that good! ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted February 18, 2002 Author Share Posted February 18, 2002 I'm all over it, soundog!!! I've read all pertinent threads about this in the Outlaw Forum, the Home Theatre Forum, and the AVS forum (one thread got pretty ugly - apparently a zealot in the forum got booted). That's why I was thinking that I could get away with hooking up that five channel tube amp to it, because the audio quality of the unit is so highly spoke of. I really like what I am hearing about the 950 so far - can't wait to get one ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted February 18, 2002 Share Posted February 18, 2002 I'm also interested in the Outlaw 950. It is good to hear that its receiving favorable reviews. Perhaps it will be my final upgrade for HT? I presently have two tube amps in use for for HT, an Anthem Amp 1 (Cornwall fronts) and Dynaco ST-70 Series II (Cornwall rears). Also have an Sound Valve VTi-70 awaiting my assembly for center channel duty. I like the SS Rectification on tube amps for HT, because it provides a little quicker bass and punch(imo). Each amp is fed its signal from my NAD T-761's audio outs for its respective channel. I too like the tube sound and the amps are performing very well in their HT role. I have an Outlaw 750 connected too, its presently handling center channel duties as well as a pair of RS-3's in rear. The RS-3's add Wide Dispersion Sounds that the Cornwall rears lack, full range and WDST is a great combination for me. I feel that tube amps can be integrated into an HT setup and when carefully matched, will produced a wonderful theater experience. The cost of tube replacement is not a big factor, as I mostly use this setup for HT use only. For 2 channel music I'm using an Eico HF-81, HFT-90 Tuner, New Tube CD along with TT and additional 5 CD changer (when lazy). Wes ------------------ "KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f> This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 02-18-2002 at 07:16 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted February 19, 2002 Share Posted February 19, 2002 Tubes for HT?...funny, I called Cary Audio Design last week with a question regarding my CAD 300SEI (possible installation of a sub woofer out). It turns out the phone was answered by Dennis Had. He seemed to be in a chatty mood, so I asked him a couple of questions. One of the qustions being what were his thoughts on tubes in HT. He told me they were working on a variable channel tube amp possibly based on their "Rocket" series of amps. Something available in 1, 2, or 3 channel configuration. Also, when I bought my first tube amp (Decware SE84c), I was so blown away by the sound quality I called Steve @ Decware and asked about HT applications. He stated that there were a few people out there using multiple Zen amps in HT with excellent results. After some consideration, I decided against it due to cost and my belief that most HT media was not designed or recorded with high fidelity in mind. Still, it's sounds intriguing... Chris ------------------ 2 channel Klipsch Cornwalls (1978) Cary CAD 300SEI amp (WE 300B's, various NOS 6SN7's) Arcam Alpha MCD cd player Sony 5000F Tuner (1968) HT Klipsch KG2.5 (front & rear) Klipsch KV2 (center) Klipsch SW12 (sub) Marantz SR700 receiver Toshiba DTS DVD JVC SVHS VCR Sony Hi8 VCR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 19, 2002 Share Posted February 19, 2002 "my belief that most HT media was not designed or recorded with high fidelity in mind. " And then there was DVDa and SACD but not necessarily in that order. Most people feel these are high fidelity formats - even those that prefer vinyl still accept that SACD is a huge leap forward from CD/DVD. When a winnner emerges you may want to reconsider.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted February 19, 2002 Share Posted February 19, 2002 maxg - Just to clarify, when my feeble mind thinks of HT (HT to me is Home Theater.) media, it's DVD movies and such. Not DVDa and SACD. With the aforementioned in mind, I guess all's fair in love and format wars...Anyone interested in an 4 track player, 8 track player, "Quadraphonic" system, DIVX player, Beta player, Video8 player, Laser Disc player, and on and on and on.... ------------------ 2 channel Klipsch Cornwalls (1978) Cary CAD 300SEI amp (WE 300B's, various NOS 6SN7's) Arcam Alpha MCD cd player Sony 5000F Tuner (1968) HT Klipsch KG2.5 (front & rear) Klipsch KV2 (center) Klipsch SW12 (sub) Marantz SR700 receiver Toshiba DTS DVD JVC SVHS VCR Sony Hi8 VCR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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