What's WRONG with Subwoofers?

[garyrc]

The 16 Hz theater organ pipe at the old Fox theater in San Francisco (torn down c1962 by idiots) had a clearly audible fundamental tone that seemed (rightly) to be about an octave below the 32 Hz pipe. Talk about shaking .... the pipe was mounted toward the ceiling, horizontally, because it was so long that there wasn't a space to mount it properly in a vertical orientation. There was a fairly transparent fish net suspended under the pipe to catch the plaster that often fell when the pipe sounded. Needless to say, they played this pipe rarely. One time they did was at the final George Wright organ concert at the Fox. It ended with him playing a rollicking version of San Francisco, as the magnificent, ornate fire curtain (which most of us had never seen until that moment), swept with spotlights, came down, and the organ console sank dramatically into the pit, with the 16 Hz pipe sounding periodically, and providing the strong underpinning for the final chord. There were no dry eyes.

[Mr. RF62]

That really sounds like something to really see. Guess there was no recorders then.?.

[garyrc]

That really sounds like something to really see. Guess there was no recorders then.?.

• I don't know if anyone recorded it. A very young James Gabbert, a true audiophile, was there that night, and if anyone could have made a good recording, it would have been him. He then owned his first in a series of FM radio stations and television channels, which I think was KPEN. He may, or may not, have been instrumental in making the Multiplex version of FM radio happen --- he certainly pushed it, and he broadcasted an early music program in Multiplex, which got my friends and I to pool our equipment for that night. The music was the score to the film Exodus. Stereo Lps had been out for about 3 years by then, so it was time for FM to go stereo without having to get two competing stations to cooperate and each broadcast one channel (which some did from time to time). Walt Disney had tried one 3 channel broadcast, with AM for the far left channel, TV for the center, and FM for the right. Gabbert may have even been a sponsor of that last George Wright concert. If anyone has contact with him, he might be able to say if the concert was recorded.

• Even good microphones then tended to roll off quite a bit before they got down to 16 Hz, and 1/4" tape also rolled off some -- When I finally got a Crown 15 ips, I was surprised (duh!) to find that the bass rolled off more at 15 ips than it did at 7 1/2 ips, but 15 was preferred for high frequency response.

• George Wright had recorded several Lps by then, some of them stereo, and some in the Fox theater, but none of them had much truly deep bass extension in the vinyl format, perhaps due to the space requirements of deep, loud bass on vinyl. If he made some commercial 7 1/2 ips tapes, they might have gone down smoothly to about 20, and might have retrievable bass at 16.

• I just tried the Stereophile 20 and 25 Hz tracks (they don't go to 16), and they seem to be real tones with a characteristic pitch that is heard -- rather than just felt, although one can really feel them. Oddly, my wife, who has far superior high frequency hearing, doesn't hear deep bass as well as I do, perhaps due to a smaller ear canal??? Later, I'll ask her to listen and tell me if she hears, or just feels, those frequencies.

[DrWho]

I think what Doc is trying to say is that 'It's all about compromise'- did I get that right Doc? LOL

Something like that....lol

[JohnA]

OK, this'll probably be more of a rant than a question, but HERE's my answers to the title question in regards to MUSIC:

• Subwoofers don't go low enough - The average sub is designed for movie impact and has little if any response below 30 Hz. Many roll off significantly higher. For movie effects, it is only a small concession, but for music, those pieces that DO have content below the sub's roll-off suffer significantly.
• Subwoofers aren't clean enough - The average sub is designed to go loud, but without being particularly clean. Most subs don't publish distortion specs (for good reason). Those that do are one to ten orders of magnitude higher distortion than the speakers they supposedly supplement. The ability to play cleanly is of little importance for movies, but matters significantly on music. Subs that can play both loudly and cleanly usually require premium drivers & amps and cost more than their main speakers.
• Subwoofers aren't linear - This is my biggest peeve with subs. Most are designed as "one-note-boom-boxes." Again, for movie effects, who cares, but for music a linear response is necessary to accurately match the curve of the main speakers. Most subs just plain suuuuuuuck!
• Loss of stereo bass - Once crossed over to the monophonic " .1 " channel by the preamp or receiver, all bass notes below that frequency are reproduced by the single sub. For movies, who cares, but for music, there is often stereo bass information that just gets lost with a mono bass line. Even adding a second subwoofer doesn't restore this information, because both subs are still playing the (mono) output of the receiver.

OK - I've gotten my peeves out there. My preference is for a pair of full-range, floor-standing loudspeakers that don't require subs at all. Yes, this puts more of a load on the amplifier to both supply current and to control the woofers via a good damping factor, but that isn't an impossible task (unless you're driving with a gutless AV receiver). Your thoughts?

This is such a prejudiced, one-sided, broad brush and inaccurate statement is is difficult to know how to respond ( [] ). Cheap sounds bad. A full range speaker does NOT put more load on the amplifier at a given output, certainly not undue load, unless the impedance gets nutty. You are complaining about -3 dB points in a subwoofer when your Heresies are spec'd at no better than +/-3dB?

Yes, many subwoofers are high distortion boomboxes, but none of those are worthy candidates for use in a Klipsch Heritage audio system. These systems require high-end subs just like they require top quality electronics.

[Boomzilla]

This is such a prejudiced, one-sided, broad brush and inaccurate statement is is difficult to know how to respond

And I love you too, John []

Cheap sounds bad...many subwoofers are high distortion boomboxes, but none of those are worthy candidates for use in a Klipsch Heritage audio system

I thought that was what I said.

...A full range speaker does NOT put more load on the amplifier at a given output...

And that's why they specify most AV receivers' output ONLY at 1KHz?

[mike stehr]

http://www.jiggystudio.com/play.php?vid=1424

[picky]

I love my RF-7, RSW-15, 7.1 setup. I consider the RSW-15 to be a very "musical" subwoofer. It's not what I would refer to as "just a thumper". For both movies and music, the system sounds great in my opinion. Dr. Who provided the scan of my room below. There's plenty of bass extension down to 19 Hz at which point it really begins to roll-off. -Glenn

[garyrc]

Hi Picky,

I agree that the RSW-15 is pretty "musical," but I still end up turning mine off with some music (not movies).

• Was your RSW-15 set at 80 Hz when Dr. Who ran the curve?
• Do you have your RF-7 channels set for "small," or "large?"
• Do you get rumble from the original recording room (during soft passages in the music) on CDs or SACDs if you are using the RSW 15 with them? I get it on a large proportion of my CDs, and especially on hybrid SACDs (played as CDs) that are remastered old recordings (like the Living Stereo series). I even get a little through the K-horns with the RSW turned off, and often a lot when the RSW is turned on (it is set to the same SPL as the K-horns, at least as close as a Radio Shack meter will allow me to get).