Heresy IIIs - What a difference a few tweaks can make

[jacksonbart]

consider the room

[4tay]

4tay: You will of course have to agree that none of your assertions carry any weight (other than in your mind) until the stock crossovers and caps have been measured and found to be deficient for their purposes. If indeed the stock parts are measured and found deficient, as in improper levels of distortion or undesired crossovers frequencies and slopes, then we have something.

It's not a question of faulty...it's a question of inferior. It's like saying a stock mustang GT isn't improved when a Shelby GT 500 package is added. The stock caps are indeed, junk. They have a MEASURABLY high ESR, and can be more improved by a $2.68 cap than any given variety of electronic front ends. So, we do indeed have something. Never mind that I have modded them and gotten results. We are talking measurable here, not some kind of snake oil that few can hear.

[laager]

4tay: You will of course have to agree that none of your assertions carry any weight (other than in your mind) until the stock crossovers and caps have been measured and found to be deficient for their purposes. If indeed the stock parts are measured and found deficient, as in improper levels of distortion or undesired crossovers frequencies and slopes, then we have something.

It's not a question of faulty...it's a question of inferior. It's like saying a stock mustang GT isn't improved when a Shelby GT 500 package is added. The stock caps are indeed, junk. They have a MEASURABLY high ESR, and can be more improved by a $2.68 cap than any given variety of electronic front ends. So, we do indeed have something. Never mind that I have modded them and gotten results. Maybe you need to break out an o'scope once in a while before you make such empty and pointless flat-earth declarations. We are talking measurable here, not some kind of snake oil that few can hear. Great way to crash and burn on your 1st post! Please go back to Audio Asylum, and stay there! Thanks!

I thought Kristian nailed it. You make a lot of assertions but don't actually provide any evidence that the caps in the crossovers are poor. Just because they may have a wider tolerance doesn't mean they actually measure at the extremes of tolerance. Perhaps you should break out the o'scope and back up your own arguments. Show us the money.

Qualifying your assertions as opinion only would not hurt. More importantly, you are not the font of all knowledge. You're not some messiah of Klipsch or electronics. Having been here but a few short weeks and amassed a large number of posts in such an abrasive style one does wonder if the order to leave you have given was one received by yourself at another forum.

[4tay]

I thought Kristian nailed it. You make a lot of assertions but don't actually provide any evidence that the caps in the crossovers are poor. Just because they may have a wider tolerance doesn't mean they actually measure at the extremes of tolerance. Perhaps you should break out the o'scope and back up your own arguments. Show us the money.

Qualifying your assertions as opinion only would not hurt. More importantly, you are not the font of all knowledge. You're not some messiah of Klipsch or electronics. Having been here but a few short weeks and amassed a large number of posts in such an abrasive style one does wonder if the order to leave you have given was one received by yourself at another forum.

Down lapdog!!! Heel! Bad dog! Kristian needs to install a shock collar on you.

Problem is, you don't think. Thinking is not something you are well suited for. However, immature flaming is. You also obviously don't read the forum and would rather be an insuffereble jerk by trolling me personally. The names Dean G, Bob Crites and Al Klappengerger ring a bell? You don't suppose that they have posted a multitude of things on this very topic? No, obviously you have no electronics background and would not understand anyway.

So please, break out the no more tears shampoo and some hankies and grow up.

[laager]

Down lapdog!!! Heel! Kristian needs to install a shock collar on you.

Problem is, you don't think. Thinking is not something you are well suited for. However, immature flaming is. You also obviously don't read the forum and would rather be an insuffereble jerk by trolling me personally. The names Dean G, Bob Crites and Al Klappengerger ring a bell? You don't suppose that they have posted a multitude of things on this very topic? No, obviously you have no electronics background and would not understand anyway.

So please, break out the no more tears shampoo and some hankies and grow up.

You're doing a fine job of endearing yourself to the forum and convincing people that your views are worth reading. Keep up the good work.

[4tay]

You're doing a fine job of endearing yourself to the forum and convincing people that your views are worth reading. Keep up the good work.

And you have painted yourself as a well-practiced troll amassing the mother lode of insignificant contributions. Keep up the good work! Every forum needs deadweight like you to keep going and make everyone else look good. We so needed your insightful analysis and comprehensive summary of what you think of me personally instead of anything of actual value. Not.

Back under the bridge with you, o arbitrator of quality participation and postcount comptroller!

Something to wrap your troll mind around: every single edit counts as a post. My actual post count is not that high. If you don't like it...get a life.

[laager]

You're doing a fine job of endearing yourself to the forum and convincing people that your views are worth reading. Keep up the good work.

And you have painted yourself as a well-practiced troll amassing the mother lode of insignificant contributions. Keep up the good work! Every forum needs deadweight like you to keep going and make everyone else look good. We so needed your insightful analysis and comprehensive summary of what you think of me personally instead of anything of actual value. Not.

Back under the bridge with you, o arbitrator of quality participation and postcount comptroller!

Something to wrap your troll mind around: every single edit counts as a post. My actual post count is not that high. If you don't like it...get a life.

My, what a temper you have.

[4tay]

My, what a temper you have.

Still continuing with your standard trolling and insigificant pouting? Get over yourself.

[finallygotmyheresies]

This thread went from interesting to lame with a quickness.

[4tay]

This thread went from interesting to lame with a quickness.

The interesting part is HIII's can be greatly improved , with a few bucks in better parts. That's another avenue besides just shuffling front end electronica , positioning, magic cables or adding a sub. Costs a lot less too. $50 in caps > $5000 in electronics.

. Then again, it's been 20 years since I was one of those guys that could only buy speakers and spend $$$$$ for marginal improvements every 90 days.

I realize this thread was nothing more than another Heresy love fest, and I am not wasting my time commenting on real HIII or Cornwall III improvements. I see for some folks, upgrading internal is simply heresy.

Enjoy the speakers, as is.

[PrestonTom]

4tay: You will of course have to agree that none of your assertions carry any weight (other than in your mind) until the stock crossovers and caps have been measured and found to be deficient for their purposes.

Saying things like "everyone who's done this agrees" carries zero weight. None. Father Klipsch would politely and quietly show you the Button--as he would with your assertion that tubeamps with their *plethora* of problems are somehow better. He breathed a big sigh of relief and stopped using tubes as soon as good SS amps arrived.

If indeed the stock parts are measured and found deficient, as in improper levels of distortion or undesired crossovers frequencies and slopes, then we have something.

Welcome to the Forum. You are a welcome breath of fresh air.

[Trey Cannon]

Good to see they finally started using good wire instead of ye olde zipcord.

Those are simple cheap caps, the type radio shack sells. (I had some in my KG4 and forte II). Just the thing for smear, stereo image drift and all kinds of detrimental things that good caps can improve on.

While I agree those are the best sounding heresy's to date, they can be improved.

Do not void the warranty to do it.

First, if anyone can prove that 1.5 ft of wire can make a difference that anyone can hear or measure I will buy the wire and eat my words!

Sec. "Those are simple cheap caps", well they may be simple, (most caps are), Cheap (yea, we get them at a good price when buying 100k of the little bugger) that RS sells, (I worked at RS for many years and have not see a mylar cap on the pegboard, but I have not see it all...)

Most of our caps are 5% some are 10%.

$1 in MFG can turn into $20 MSRP, so yes it does cost less to change a part after you buy it than it does to change them all in production.

If you want to kill the low end in a speaker, connect it to a light bulb amp...MHO

PWK did stop using LBA's and went to SS amps as soon as he could. They are easier to use, (more protection from shorted leads), more power = more headroom and better to take care of in the lab. (he changed them out at home for a PRO amp)

Ask any Eng...all things can improve with enough money and testing.

What I want to know is how all the DIY guys know what they have after the "fix"?

Do you have a way to prove what you THINK you hear?

Do you have any test data (with out the room in the test) that showes less THD or smoother curves?

FYI: the only time PWK got mad at me was when I ask him about adding parts to "his" speakers for one of the "DIY" guys from the forum. If it were not for Mrs. K, he would have thrown me out of the house on my ear. He told me " I have worked on that speaker for 50 years, it does not need fixed, now get the hell out of my house".

NOW, to the "fight"...all of you need to grow up. There is no need to call eachother names or act like school kids.

Agree to dissagree.

I will lock this thread now and will chunk any of you that keep it up.

No Amy is not hear and I don't play nice like her. I just don't have time for this silly stuff.

[Trey Cannon]

OK, to be fair...(which I am not at times) \

I was NOT directing this post at the quoted, only using his post to make some points.

It goes out to all the DYI folks. It has been no quite thing that I / we have not supported the DIY folks after we quit making the shorthorn in kit form. In fact we (klipsch) had "words" with speakerlab over just that topic many years ago. Just call and try to buy parts for a DIY project and see what you get from the parts dept.

It was not ment as a slam on anyone person.

Here is the responce I received...

Now he has had his turn and its done.

MY point of view / input is in red.

Subject: Modders "fix"

Mr. Cannon,

With all due respect to you and Klipsch, I apologize for a public argument. However, your slam post against me with no chance for rebuttle was a low blow,

First point: You all but directly admitted (I freely admit) you had (have) to meet a price point/compromise on parts. The palladium makes no such compromises (no so fast there skippy, all parts make compromises, We could have made the P-line active, removing all analog parts), therefore all else can be improved with better parts. It also begs the question: If the HIII caps measured and sounded the best (with in the price range given to build the network), they should have been used in the palladium. Better parts in the lower lines sounds better (agred, but no one will pay for the better parts from the MFG) - to say otherwise is wrong, or at least intellectually disingenuous. Here is why:

Second: YOU KNOW THIS STUFF: I know PWK's attitude. I have been around Klipsch since the 70's. That means I know that in the mid 80's Klipsch took a quantum leap ahead. (PWK was still there and took part in the change of componets, he did not like the plastic horn either. He wanted to use wood but bending the K5J by hand was not happening in mass production) (PWR jr? PWK has not kids...roy was not there, Gary G had a lot to do with that.) They eliminated the metal horns that went off like a faire alarm at certain frequencies with a phenolic that ameliorated this effect. this made Klipsch sound better with more than just smooth tube amps. And again, they changed to titanium instead of phenolic because Ti has a superior performance (True, but only because phenolic cost more and was harder to get, this was not the case when it was first used)....flat out. These changes are MODS with BETTER PARTS (BY THE MFG, WITH TESTING SO WE KNOW WHAT WE WERE PRODUCING). They (PWK Helped!) took a PWK design and IMPROVED IT. There can be no argument for that. The new Klipsch (tractrix) measure better as well. ( It took John P to explain tractrix so PWK could understand the view point, Roy could not put it in the right words and yes Tractrix is better than the Exp. )

So again, all due respect, I understand price points and your defending products. However, if better parts and mods didn't happen, Klipsch would not be as big and popular as they are now.

Yes, modders do frequently have a fix. Mods are not done just to spend money, they can and do make a great thing better.

Thank you for your time.