Deang Posted March 30, 2002 Share Posted March 30, 2002 Big Room Don't even think about attempting to fill it with realistic, theater levels of sound with anything but a horn system. I just have ONE set of RF7's for HT -- and it is nothing short of outstanding. It's the bass where you will have problems because of the size of the room. Definitely go with a pair of SVS ultra's. If you start running out of money -- just go with RF5's for the surround channels -- or even RF3 II's or RB5 II's. Don't cheat the bass though -- ------------------ dean This message has been edited by deang on 03-30-2002 at 10:17 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted March 30, 2002 Share Posted March 30, 2002 Justin, you should look through this Forum's archives to see what my hero, Q-man, has done with Klipschorn and LaScala speakers. I am with deanG... anything less than a robust, fully horn-loaded theater sound would be a wasted opportunity. And, RF-7's for all their accuracy and elegance are far more cone speakers than horns. Klipsch is hinting at some major benefits to the new line of Heritages that are now being "ramped up" for mid-April production. You ought to talk to Trey Cannon and see if you can get some insights for your 5,000+ posts. Most Forum members are well aware that I favor the seven speakers of a 7.1 system to be as close to the same as possible. After all, it is on that assumption that modern movies are mixed. Ideally, if you were going to use seven K-horns, your room is already less than ideal. However, if you used a pair of K-horns in your primary corners and Klipsch Belles everywhere else... plus dual SVS Ultras for the .1... you would have one of the finest sound systems going... plus the flexibility to upgrade amps and such for all speakers and subwoofers. I like the power and flexibility of the SVS Ultras and would use either Sampson or Crown Amps. The Dolby Minimum Standard for Commercial Theaters is 121.5 dB and it will take two Utras to hit that. Why build a big budget home theater without being able to hit the minimum standard for theaters? Also, how much of that $42k is budgeted for the actual sound equipment? And what are the room dimensions? Will you be able to seal off light from the windows... projection systems have problems with ambient light. Be aware that if you place speakers behind a projection screen, it must be one that is specifically designed for that purpose... and that means more expensive! If you are going to have the room accommodate larger groups of people... a center speaker becomes very important to keeping multi-point "sound perspectives" in good order. The extended bass of multiple fully loaded horn speakers would tend to lessen your problems with standing waves and other long-wave aberrations... providing you have good bass management and an equalizer to minimize architectural errors. Were any acoustics or psychoacoustics parameters addressed in the design of the HT space? Personally, I would include Front Effects speakers (as Q-man has with his Heritage HT) and the equivalent of the 8-speaker stereo that has enriched parties in my neck of the woods. Since I am about to build something similar, I appreciate your sharing some of the details. Sorry I did not notice this thread earlier. Congratulations to have a ProMedia alternative to your life! May you enjoy many happy returns of your home theater! -HornEd. ------------------ Photo update soon! -HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oosting Posted March 30, 2002 Share Posted March 30, 2002 You should have asked before building the room. You could have put dual concrete or cinder-block bass horns below the floor and use them to support the floor. Have one mouth at the front of the room and one mouth at the opposite end and vent them outdoors. Dual 20 foot long bass horns driven with some 18" or 15" pro woofers! Now THAT would have been a REAL subwoofer! You could probably blow the roof off with something like that! Of course, everything else would have to be horn-loaded also just to keep up with the subs. Feel like pulling up some sub-floor? Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted March 30, 2002 Share Posted March 30, 2002 HornEd, "And, RF-7's for all their accuracy and elegance are far more cone speakers than horns." And so what? The RF-7's can play as loud as your KLF30's.And two pairs of RF-7's with a RC-7 center will fill even large rooms with realistic volumes providing you have a solid amp(ATI 2505)and proper subwoofing(this way the RF-7's and RC-7 can be cut at 80Hz). RF-7's can blast over 120dB with ease in even good sized rooms.If this is not realsitic Justin better go with TAD or JBL Pro theater monitors and several Cerwin Vega bass bins. Also I would get four SVS Ultras powered by two Crown amps SVS sells.Nice foundation to be sure TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted March 30, 2002 Share Posted March 30, 2002 Why not get a 18" or dual-18" JBL Pro sub? A $400 pro amp will give you 1000 watts. No massing around, no power shortage, HUGE dynamics, VERY fast to keep up with horns. No reason not to. People AVOID hi-quality (key word hi-quality) pro speakers because they don't have the room and also want better looks. YOU (Justin) could hide the sub easily and have WAY BETTER bass than a SVS. At least consider it. There are JBL Pro dealers in Houston. ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted March 30, 2002 Share Posted March 30, 2002 Ken, I agree here,JBL Pro subwoofers do outperform SVS subs. But the JBL's dont have the deep sub bass power SVS has(I am talking under 20Hz power). Sure most movies and music has nothing of value under 25Hz. Two JBL Pro 18" subs(I am talking about the S1S) the should keep up with ANY speaker you may place in this room. These monsters use the 2242H 18" woofer,a real beast.With one Crown you will seprate the house foundation from earth's crust. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted March 31, 2002 Author Share Posted March 31, 2002 when i get home i will post the specs of what our designer recommended, which is mirage.... and the exact size of the room. i am in arkansas right now, not too far from KLIPSCH ------------------ -justin SoundWise Support A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted March 31, 2002 Share Posted March 31, 2002 Justin, these are all recommendations. I am sure whatever you get, subs, speakers, etc. will blow the $hi! out of what 99% of us have. GET BIG SPEAKERS!!! GET BIG SPEAKERS!!! GET BIG SPEAKERS!!! GET BIG SPEAKERS!!! GET BIG SPEAKERS!!! ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted March 31, 2002 Share Posted March 31, 2002 Sorry my eye didn't catch TheEar(s) "So what?" about the RF-7's being short on horns. To me, the quintessential "Klipsch Sound" that I know and love is made by horns... not cones! Cones may be what audiophiles prefer to stick their ear(s) in... and that's fine... and Ear(s) can root (and faux toot) about cones with the horn tweeter on top ad nauseum. I hope it sells a lot of Reference speakers to make Klipsch strong and profitable for years to come. But I like horns... particularly fully loaded horn speakers like Klipschorn, Klipsch Belles, LaScala, etc. If I were building a large room for music and HT, those are the speakers I would choose. Those are the speakers Q-man would chose... and has! With the new version of the old Heritage line ramping up for mid-April production... I trust that the Horn Fanciers on our Forum can rise above The Ear(s) and help Klipsch sell more Heritage speakers so that our great grand children can hear, first hand, the genius of Paul W. Klipsch a hundred years from now. The six KLF-30's (plus a pair of KLF C-7's for Front Effects) and 7' SVS Ultra subwoofer tower were designed for the ears of my 94 year-old mother... and at 94 hear ears are not audiophile quality. When the RF-7's were finally available for an multiple RF-7 audition, I took mother along to see what her ears had to say about them. We played the same material on both systems... and anyone could see from her expression that she got more enjoyment from the horn version than the cone version... otherwise there would be six RF-7's where the KLF-30's still reign. Keeping that lady smiling as long as I can is my primary task these days. And my medievalist named son, Garth, is smiling because he knows were all these horns will likely wind up. And I am smiling with my long beard grown for a medieval role because those I love have sound that suits their ears... and mine too! So far I have five Heritage speakers for my music/computer room, anchored by a beautiful pair of '97 Khorns. So cone and panel your Ear(s) as ye may... I'm still gonna' grab my sound by the horns! -HornED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted March 31, 2002 Share Posted March 31, 2002 i agree w/ ed. if i had the space it would be all klipsch heritage (khorns, belle, cornwalls) for both music & HT. klipsch, where's the heritage horn sub? but the tubular design of the legends & rf work great for now. party on ed & mom! party on garth! ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted March 31, 2002 Share Posted March 31, 2002 I didn't want to comment on this post, but since my buddy HornEd did some name dropping, I will. I agree, the Reference line isn't a horn speaker. To me you don't have a horn speaker unless it is fully horn loaded. Fred is in the market to make money and be competitive. I believe Paul was driven more by passion, like most of us horn lovers. Then again, Paul was from a different time. He had to compete with other horn manufactures. If I was in charge at Klipsch, I would insist that every dealer must display a pair of Klipschorns. I would be ashamed to show the Reference line without being able to show the top of the line. I bought a pair of KG-5.5 speakers for my parents. My father didn't want them, he felt that they were too big. We set them up in a room next to a pair of 10" DCM speakers and A-B listened to them. The DCM speakers cost $250.00 a pair. The 5.5 speakers sold for $1000.00 a pair. The DCM speakers blew away the KG-5.5 speakers. Six out of seven peaple preferred the DCM's. The 5.5 is said to be a horn speaker. Come on , lets get real here. If I was in the market for a speaker like the Reference line, I would be also concidering a number of other brands. Then again, this is why Fred has this speaker out in the publics face. About the room. I don't think that you should build a room without first picking your speakers. You should have a speaker that moves you (again, that passion thing).Then design the room to compliment the speaker. My first impression of the room is that it is too boxy. Also, lose the window. If you need a window because of the building code requirements make it 24" by 18" and five feet off the floor. It's only needed for a fire ascape. I wanted to design and build a bass horn speaker to 20Hz. I thought that I could improve on the Klipschorn. John Warren supplied me with an excellent book on bass horn design. It had the math equations and formulas on throat expansion rates related to the length of the horn and it's mouth size. Once you try to achieve a frequency below 35HZ. these horns get really huge. I drew up four or five designs, and the mouth was big enought for me to walk into. While doing this I gained more and more appreciation for Paul's corner loaded bass horn. I'll stop now, I'm getting off the subject. I'm Sorry, but this is why I didn't want to comment on this room or speaker. Q. ------------------ Q-Man This message has been edited by Q-Man on 03-31-2002 at 04:29 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted March 31, 2002 Author Share Posted March 31, 2002 i am back in houston, still no quote from our designer. the window is fake. it will have a mirror behind it and we are going to cover it with insulation and sheet rock, and then put a mirror and frame on the other side, so it looks like a window from both ends, but is not a window at all. room, not too boxy really. rectangular shape, two different ceilings, and a stage, and will probably have sound pyramids on the ceiling. just got back from a trip to Harding University in Arkansas and took a gander at their horn loaded sound system, here is a pic i don't know how long we can wait for the speakers, but i can probably wait till klipcsh says when the heritage will be out for sale, and then hope that we have enough dough for a full theater out of them. ------------------ -justin SoundWise Support A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted April 2, 2002 Author Share Posted April 2, 2002 Any Klipsch moderators want to shed some light on this? Which would i be better off with, a full RF-series setup, or the new heritage, and any idea how much more the new heritage will be, and when they will come out? ------------------ -justin SoundWise Support A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted April 2, 2002 Share Posted April 2, 2002 The Heritage. How deep is the stage floor? The Klipschorn needs four feet of side walls. If your serious, you could have them frame a 90 degree corner in the center of the stage behind the screen. This corner could be used for a Klipschorn or a subwoofer. Klipschorns in the rear or LaScalas upside down an stands about five feet off the floor also works. Off the floor they drop off fast below 80Hz. You will need a top notch subwoofer. First, I suggest that you go hear a pair somewhere. Your ears will tell you what's right for you. Then if you can't wait for Klipsch, start watching for some to go for sale in your area. You can pick up some cheap temporary speakers to hold you over while you search. Q. ------------------ Q-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted April 2, 2002 Author Share Posted April 2, 2002 well then, i don't think heritage will work for me then since i only have one corner. of to the left of the stage (about 1 foot above the floor) is a doorway to the 'stage room', and then the doorway to the actualy theater is right in the corner, and the front right corner, by the window, is not really a corner, it has an airconditioning duct there and the wall shows it. so i guess i will be going with an RF setup, that should be enough though right? also, how does a 7.1 sound for music and movies. how does the center channel work out, and how many speaker will play music? etc etc. ------------------ -justin SoundWise Support A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted April 2, 2002 Share Posted April 2, 2002 If you are going with RF-7's try to go all the way. At least put RF-7's in the LMain, Center, RMain locations... a full featured RF-7 will give you the punch in the middle (behind a perforated screen... just like in the big theaters) for HT and just the right touch on multi-channel music. While the ideal would be to have three or four RF-7's in the rear array, the multi-purpose use of the room would probably call for a pair of RS-7's on the side and a pair of RC-7's in the rear. The RS-7's will provide a wide sweet spot across the room. And using a pair of center channels across the rear will provide the direct radiating punch that discrete 7.1 systems need... plus having the bonus of having tapered arrays to provide clearer speech for the party goers in the rear. Of course, I would probably populate the stage with a matched pair of SVS Ultras driven by at least a single Samson 1000 power amp... maybe even stacking them in the one useable front corner. Then again, I would probably mount another pair of RC-7's six feet high at both ends of the stage to serve as front effects. That way you should be able to play 9 channel stereo for parties that will be the talk of your circle of party goers. And the difference about this suggestion is I really have built sound systems using all of the elements that I have suggested. Party on Justin & Family! -HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted April 2, 2002 Share Posted April 2, 2002 i 2nd horned & heck for 42K budget u could even use 4 rs-7 on sides & 2 rf-7 for rear surround. then all u need is a big receiver or prepro/amp some things to feed those, some wires & stuff, some... ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted April 2, 2002 Share Posted April 2, 2002 Heritage speakers do not all need corners. The Cornwall, as its name implies, is basically a Klipschorn that doesn't need a corner. Apparently the Heritage and Reference series have VERY different sounds. It's a matter of taste which you prefer. A couple people I talked to heard Belles and preferred the Ref sound, but that doesn't mean they're right, as most people that vocalize here seem to prefer the Heritage speakers. Of course, auditioning Heritage migh be kind of a hassle right now... With the performance offered by the Ref 7 series, I don't see how a more theater-like sound could be achieved... More musical, sure, but listening to the full Ref setup with Aragon electronics was the best theater sound experience I've had in my life! ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystery Guest Posted April 2, 2002 Share Posted April 2, 2002 Justin...my uneducated opinion is that the Heritage line are the best sounding speakers but the Reference line has a good sound also. Take the advice above...listen to both and trust your ears. And speaking of ears...Hey TheEar...You are just a little too touchy. Horned was just pointing out that you were portraying your speakers as horn loaded. That was how I took it...Anyway back to the subject...It looks like a great project Justin. I know it will be lots of fun putting it together. Steve would love to be able to do that. Post some pics when you get done... ------------------ The token female for the Klipsch Fan Club Tour 2001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted April 2, 2002 Share Posted April 2, 2002 good point seb. for amp & preamp justin get that new aragon stage one & the 7 channel high power amp. i know steve p agrees. (i like my b&k too ) keepin it all in the klipsch family. then u only have to leave to get the tv, input components, wire and .... love this vicarious high budget gadget shoppin ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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