HDBRbuilder Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 Justin, Go with the 7-ply cabinet grade birch...yer uncle can get it cheaper for ya than lowes will sell it...just be sure the inner plys are birch too, and NOT poplar. You will appreciate it when you go to make those miter joints and glue them together...poplar plys will suck up the glue and swell outward, causing you to get a crappy miter-joint(not as solid as it needs to be), while birch inner plys will give you an excellent clean strong joint!! ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 Thanks. I am starting a website for him so maybe this can be a trade off ------------------ -justin SoundWise Support A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 Justin, Listen to HDBR. If I didn't agree with him I would have said something by now. Stop checking at Lowes. Your uncle will be able to get much better plywood and cheaper. I think it's time you started talking to him. The plans are on the way. Q. ------------------ Q-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 thanks guys. yeah, my uncle is coming over tonight and we are going to chat about it. thanks ------------------ -justin SoundWise Support A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 Q-man, High-Five!!...and thanks. It's always a pleasure for me to know that there are others around who have spent alot of time tryin to get sawdust out of their ears over the years! I often find myself feeling sorry for folks who, with the absolute best of intentions, decide to begin a project utilizing the least expensive materials, and don't understand they will end up regretting it later on. Too many times I have seen folks with a burning desire and outstanding latent ability run headlong into a brick wall in a woodworking project...causing them to give up on ever attempting one again, and thereby losing an opportunity to enjoy learning the art. By no means do I consider myself an expert at woodworking. Like anything else, there alot of different ways to do end up with the same result, and therefore alot of different opinions about the best route to take. I do, however tend to offer up ADVICE to those whom I see heading in what I perceive to be the wrong direction. All that I can offer up to them is the bit of wisdom and "tricks of the trade" that I have aquired over the years...based on my experience and on what has been taught to me by others. Everybody makes mistakes, as do I, but I try to learn from these mistakes and not repeat them in the future..and am more than willing to offer up what I have learned to others. It would be a blessing to me to someday meet you so that I can "pick your brain" in a pleasant and relaxing atmosphere. BTW...I noticed a pneumatic tool in the pics posted...is that a duofast stapler or brad gun? Also, when you were assembling up the mitered panels, did you reinforce the glue-joints with brads or staples fired into the miters from the outside of the cabinet?...just wondered. Looks like yer prototype was in pine plywood...had to be alot of fun dealing with its tendencies to warp and curl while gettin those mitered edges together...LOL!!!...especially if you didn't brad or staple em along the mitered joints as you tried to get em to go together tightly!!..I can just picture it in my mind...been there, done that...way too many times!!! JUSTIN: When you talk to your uncle, mention the use of baltic birch 11-ply...and remind him you intend to paint it anyway...see what he thinks...he MAY be able to get you a very good price on it, too! The reason I mention this is your statement about the MDF being denser and therefore more amenable to acoustic applications...as is the Baltic birch!!...YOU CAN"T GET MUCH MORE DENSITY THAN WHAT BALTIC BIRCH GIVES YOU...LOL! You will find that out the first time you pick up a sheet of it!!!...LOL! As for the baltic birch being just a tad undersized in thickness compared to American birch 3/4" plywood, I can't tell you if that would adversely affect the performance of the horn...you have to refer that query to Q-man. Hope I have been some help to you!! ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 HDBR, It's a duofast staple gon, I took the safety off and ground down the tip so I can shoot at angles. Most of my guns are Duofast. I glue and staple the joints. I find this to be the best way to line them up & keep them accurate. Then for basshorns I will pre-drill & screw. There is a lot of pressure in some of these cabinets.If you don't staple first, screws have a tendency to pull the joint in one direction or the other. When I use a nice veneered plywood then I will use a Plate (biscuit) Jointer & glue and clamp the joints.This slows down the assembly and leaves no room for error. But, then there are no nail holes to fill. It also means you have to design the joints so no end grain or plys show. Sometimes this isn't feasiable. It's like you said, there are 999 different ways to build a simple box. I think the Plate Jointer is the best tool introduced in the last 20 years. Just to let you know, I can buy Baltic Birch in 5'by 5' sheets. 5/8", 11 ply cost me $20.00. 3/4",13 ply cost me $24.00 a sheet. ------------------ Q-Man This message has been edited by Q-Man on 04-29-2002 at 09:11 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 HDBR, I forgot to say that the plywood that I used in this speaker is Caribbean Pine. It's just what happened to be laying around when I decided to build them. We keep about 40 sheets of a 3/4" cabinet grade laying around for when we might need it for something. We buy whats ever on sale at the time when we need more. We don't use much 3/4" plywood, so when we need a special type we order it per job. We do most of our building with 5/8" material. But this pine is straight, we don't have any use for it if it isn't. We can't have any bowed pieces in our cabinets. I find there is no subsitute for a sharp blade and a powerfull saw moter. The faster you can run the blade through a piece of wood the better. There is less heat build up on the piece of wood which results in less warpage. Ever cut a straight piece of hardwood and watch it twist and warp coming off the saw? Your not gettig it past the blade fast enought. The blade is heating up the wood and making it warp. By yhe way, the cutting tools I used to make this speaker are. A table saw with a fence that can rip up to 50", a radial arm saw , a sliding compond miter saw, and a router. Q. ------------------ Q-Man This message has been edited by Q-Man on 04-29-2002 at 09:16 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 Q-man Back when I was building at Klipsch, we used Duofast staple, nail, and brad guns. This Senco guy came out one day and left about six Senco finishing nail guns and the sasme number of staple guns with us to try out. The old Duofast nail guns were heavy and bulky and had terrible balance with straight handles makin em unweildy to use, but the new Senco nail guns felt just right in the hands, alot lighter, and all around better. The opposite turned out to be true for the Senco STAPLE guns though...not as consistent on recycle, not as consistent on performance, etc, as the old Duofast ones. Well, we used the nail guns for a few weeks, and got spoiled by em, but we all preferred the Duofast stapler over the Senco stapler. When time came to decide which ciompany to go with, the number crunchers wanted to stick with one company for ALL the guns. Well...we vetoed that crap and showed em a mix of the two gave more production. When I left we still all had Senco nail guns, but Duofast staple guns...LOL! The gals back inthe sanding room hated to fill in those "T-shaped " holes from the nail gun's driver...always bitchin about it. Well,, one day they were sittin around on break talkin about how hard it was to fill them holes and I grabbed my nail gun, tore it apart, took the driver out and went to the grinding wheel. Then I carefully "relieved" each side of those "tops of the 'T'" back about 1/8" from the tipwith the "relief" gently flairing back out to its original width over the next 1/8". I built the rest of the cabinets that day using that driver....the next day or two , also. Well, those sandin room gals had to find something else to ***** about, then cause they just loved puttyin them square holes so much!!! We took off our safeties too...on the senco nail guns we ever so slightly ground off the sharp edges at the tip of the guns, and then buffed em smooth as glass. Then we could just drag em across the grain of that birch veneer firing away and not leave a scratch!! After that my production of birch heresys and cornwalls increased about 10-15% per day on average!!! Wouldn't it be nice if those biscuit makin companies came out with spline material made just like biscuits but where you could cut it to length for continous joint reinforcing instead of having to use multiple biscuits? Then you could just take the table saw and groove the edges, glue em up, stick that spline in there and voila!!! Seems like they should have figured that little profit-maker out already, don't it? I use masking tape alot to align and clamp mitered edges, ever try that? Alot easier than using a bunch of clamps!!! But ya gotta use a good tape!! I figure ya have used it before, but if ya haven't I will go over it with ya...it is great with birch plywood!!...really gives ya a nice sharp toe-toe on those joints...hardly ever need to use any putty at all!! Another thing...for using brads or finishing nails to secure a miter where veneer is concerned and you dont want any nail holes to fill afterwards...there is this little gouge tool, you just gouge shallowly through the veneer just into the substrate under it and it curls up...then you nail into the little opening there, take some of that woodworker's superglue, and glue the curl back down...works great!!! After ya sand down the panel where you have done this, you never know it was even used!!! Boy, you get that baltic birch for half what it costs here!!!!...geez!!! Again, it is nice to see another woodworker in here!!! ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 Q-man, Yeah, I hear ya on the table saw!!! As far as I am concerned, the higher the RPM, the larger the diameter and thickness of the blade body is (for stability and its flywheel effect), the more sharp teeth you have on the blade (preferably alternating bevel chisel with straight chisels thrown between em), and the less vibration...the better. And nothing makes a better top than cast steel!! It's always great to have a good t-fence, a LARGE saw-table top, and fence rails that go way out from the blade to allow for wider cuts against the fence, too....but, alas....for me, I currently have to setle for an older model 10" Delta Contractor saw...at least it is alot better than some of the crap I see around...and I have learned to live with it...Actually...it is a pretty good ole machine all things considered!! That Carribean pine sure has figure in it like Southern Yellow Pine plywood...I hear ya on not wantin to build anything with plywood that acts like it wants to "crawl back to the mill like a lost snake"...LOL! Ya just gotta love baltic birch for stuff like drawer boxes and bottoms...hell...it even takes dove-tailing well!!...kinda ugly, but alot better than any other material I have found!!!...sure gives off alot of formaldehyde tho....geez...open the door to a shop with alot of bundles of it inside in the mornin after a hot night, and yer eyes burn for half an hour!!! Like I said earlier...it's nice to see another woodworker in here!!! ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUNDJUNKIE Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 WOW, these look like University type folded horns built into a veneered cabinet!! The drivers alone are worth the price!! This message has been edited by SOUNDJUNKIE on 04-30-2002 at 10:23 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUNDJUNKIE Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 Sorry, here's the link to the folded horn in the cab auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1349234601 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted May 1, 2002 Share Posted May 1, 2002 QMan, i got the plans in the mail today.. That was VERY fast, thank you so much! I talked to my uncle, he was more than happy to build them, or have his ppl do it rather. It is going to be tongue and groove and wood glued and screwed. so it will be a very firm fit, nothing wrong with that is there? that is their basic building technique. the actualy cabinet's (2 for now) will not cost me a single dime! he is going to do an exchange, i build their website, they build my speaker cabinets. They will do a MUCH better job than I could ever hope to do. Thanks so much! Once the cabinets are finished, i have not given him the plans yet, I will give some pictures. Just need help picking out a speaker and tweeter. I went to parts express and found... SELENIUM 12PW3CE 12" P.A. DRIVER The 12PW3 is a perfect upgrade to many existing cabinets. For system design, use this 12" in mid/high enclosures for mobile satellite subwoofers systems and general PA applications. The 12PW3 produces outstanding vocal clarity and detail. * Power handling: 200 watts RMS/285 watts max * Voice diameter: 1-3/4" * Voice coil inductance: .45mH * Nominal impedance: 8 ohms * DC resistance: 6.3 ohms * Frequency response: 55-5,000 Hz * Magnet weight: 44 oz. * Fs: 48 Hz * SPL: 98 dB 1W/1m * Vas: 3.6 cu. ft. * Qms: 13.75 * Qes: .67 * Qts: .63 * Xmax: 1.25mm * Net weight: 9-1/2 lbs. * Dimensions: A: 12-1/16", B: 11", C: 4-3/4", D: 5-3/4", E: 1-5/16". PIONEER A30IR50-51F 12" BUTYL SURR WOOFER Power handling: 150 watts RMS/210 watts max * Voice coil diameter: 2-1/2" * Impedance: 8 ohms * Frequency response: 19-5,000 Hz * Magnet weight: 50 oz.. * SPL: 91 dB 1W/1m * Vas: 11.91 cu. ft. * Xmax: 3.1mm * Qms: 4.37 * Qes: .27 * Qts: .25 * Fs: 19 Hz. PIONEER A30GU40-51D 12" HD POLY WOOFER Power handling: 100 watts RMS/140 watts max * Voice coil diameter: 2" * Impedance: 6 ohms * Frequency response: 23-1,500 Hz * Magnet weight: 40 oz. * SPL: 96 dB 1W/1m * Vas: 12.68 cu. ft. * Xmax: 2.5mm * Qms: 1.86 * Qes: .18 * Qts: .16 * Fs: 23 Hz. WIll that be sufficient? Or will I loose quality going with these woofers over others? for the tweeter, this is all they really have (i will probably have to go with some other company for this I know...) PYLE PRO PH391 4"x10" HORN TWEETER * Power handling: 100 watts RMS/200 watts max * Voice coil diameter: 1" * Impedance: 8 ohms * Frequency response: 1,000-15,000 Hz * Magnet weight: 20 oz. * SPL: 102 dB 1W/1m sorry to have all the questions thanks again guys, especially Qman and HornED (BTW, HornED, I have been trying to email you, using two different addresses and neither works, says that your server does not like me... ) ------------------ -justin SoundWise Support A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUNDJUNKIE Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 The 2 Pioneers have some nice TS parameters. I like the one with the butyl surround. What do I know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUNDJUNKIE Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 Justin, you may want to put together your own horn/driver combo for the top end. This is not anywhere to compromise. There is lots to be had on ebaY in this area. Maybe an inexpensive pair of JBL 2370 clone horns that'll get you down to at least 800Hz with some nice tone. The horn itself is about 5"X15"! Also some nice drivers like these to couple to them: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1349610121 . don't know what your budget is but $300 should get you something really nice. This message has been edited by SOUNDJUNKIE on 05-02-2002 at 10:43 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 Justin, No NO! You need a woofer that has a surround that is set in or back from the face of the basket. The woofer screws to the baffle board that the 6" x 13" slot is cut into. When the cone moves in and out the surround must not hit the baffle board. I think pioneer woofer surrounds will be touching the board. You have no place to put a cone midrange driver. You need to use a driver and horn combintion. One like the cobraflex that can fit into the mouth of the basshorn or one that you can mount on top of it like the Klipschorn does. Q. ------------------ Q-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 whew! thanks. i guess i will look around eBay for.... what are the ones you would recommend, tweeter and woofer ------------------ -justin SoundWise Support A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUNDJUNKIE Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 Qman, the 2370 is a JBL horn and the 2425J is a 16ohm JBL compression driver. The driver specs can be dl from here: http://www.jblpro.com/pages/obsolete.htm . The horn is a current model and is used atop their 4671 Sound Reinforcement/Theater Systems. Here is the link for it: http://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/2370a.htm . Justin- Q-man is right about the woofer, it was my bad as I was only commenting on the TS and forgot they were mounted from behind. They need to be like these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1349589639 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1349613049 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eB ayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1349613050http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1349814148 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 ok, so i get say... 2 ALTEC 414-16B WOOFERS or 2 Altec Lansing 414Z 16 Ohms Speakers and then get 2 University HF drivers to drive the speakers and then two tweeters and I am set? ok, fair enough, now, I need a crossover, which i assume will connect both speakers to the power input i will give them from an amp. how does that work? if say the tweeter maxes out at 40 watts and the woofer at 150, how does that work out, or do i just find stuff (via the help of you guys ) that will match well enough? i am so sorry for all the ?'s, it is not like me to ask questions like this, but this is my first venture into building speakers. my dad and i went over the plans today, Qman, how many pages were there in the mailing you gave me, 2 right? something tells me i should have 3 pages, or maybe i am just crazy. ------------------ -justin SoundWise Support A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUNDJUNKIE Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 The idea is NOT to have to get the tweeter, but to have a good enough driver and horn to cover everything(most everything) above the woof. A two way system. Try to get all 16 or 8 ohm components so that a pre-made crossover(made for 8 or 16 ohm components) with a HF attenuation can make the transition pretty seamless. The output from the bassbin/woofer combo and Mid driver/horn won't be the same right out of the gate. I don't know what the impedance is of the University driver but you'll need a horn set to mate up with whatever you get. The horn needs to be large enough to get you to your LF crossover point and, if not right, will attenuate or roll-off your high freq's. I like the JBL driver I listed, they look NEW and could go to near 20K with the right horn. The JBL 4671 uses the 2425J HF driver on the 2370A horn and it's spec'd to 16K(3dB) and 20K(10dB)!! Check out the 4671 specs from the JBLPRO link above under Utility Systems, Low Frequency Systems and Subwoofers(4671OK) OR Industrial and Cinema Loudspeakers(4671). I have a pair of brand new 2370A clones that I could sell you dirt cheap if you decide to get the 2425's. Hopefully you can scarf the woofs cheap as well. You may have to wait for individual auction pieces as they don't seem to go as high on the final bid as "sets" do. This message has been edited by SOUNDJUNKIE on 05-03-2002 at 12:48 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klewless Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 justin, The reason you can get by with a 40 watt tweeter mating with a 150 watt woofer is because there is very little music power in the tweeter's range. A 40 Hz signal is more powerful than a 400 Hz signal which is more powerful than a 4000 Hz signal. The Klipsch heritage (3-way crossover) brings the tweeter in around 5000-6000 Hz. Therefore they can get by with a 3 watt tweeter. My power statement is based on acoustic instruments. Hope that helps. ------------------ John P St Paul, MN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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