Where to start... (vintage la scala & heresy)

[Balaroue]

I have six vintage la scalas, and 4 Heresys (actually had 12 la scalas for many years). They were always used in a commercial application, but I took them out of service a few years ago. Over the years we blew woofers & had replaced them with eminence (dont remember which 15, but they were I believe 400 watt).

Im considering putting them back in service (the la scalas, and maybe the heresys)! My original thought was to basically use the box & fill it with new drivers from bms or jbl. After reading the forum posts from many knowledgeable klipsch fans here, Im left confused lol.

First, I dont think the crossovers have ever been touched. How can I tell if I need them re-done/updated/replaced? They do function. If I were to replace the drivers, I would probably need to replace the crossovers... unless I can match the new ones.

Ive always loved the mids in these. The highs... not so much. OK, not at all. Always left wanting. The bass, although tight, never hit low enough or produced enough volume for me.

Im not familiar with many of the mods done here (brands etc). Just a guess, but Im thinking most here are more the audiophile (home use), and less the contractor/club sound type. If so, should I bother looking into the mods/brands used here? Dont get me wrong here, just wondering if most of whats here is based purely on sound quality.

Anyway, should I start at the crossovers & work my way up? Or, should I gut the things? Any advice and/or guidance would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Marc

[FranJ]

What's gonna be the application? Pro-sound or home sound?

my god you have six of them to experiment with, that's great, you're very lucky! I wouldn't use anything else than the stock woofer inside, tho - or the K43E if you can find it, it takes more power-

then the next things to work on are the crossovers, probably, if they're old - replace the caps, or upgrade to a modern design (you can find a few on this forum)

the tweeters... if you don't mind doing some woodwork, get rid of the hi-mid parts, and use v-tracs of Fastracs mid horns and some nice tweeters like beyma or JBL. If you don't want to change the way they look, you're stuck with the stock drivers and horns, you can swap the tweeters for the BEC tweeter (do a search on it)

as for the bass, your Scalas WON'T go lower... you need a sub. there's a mod to make the cabinet bigger and port them, but IMHO this goes against the horn-loading principle of minimum cone excursion = minimum distortion. miht work very good tho, never tried yet.

Voilà, there's a lot of information on this forum, and LaScalas and heresys are definitely worth some efforts!

[tromprof]

A great resource is Bob Crites (http://www.critesspeakers.com/). He make/sells all kinds of goodies to liven up your La Scalas. The age of the speakers will let you know if the crossovers need help. I figure any crossover that is 20 years old needs at least a recap. Bob also sells a nice replacement tweeter that is an improvement over the old stock tweeter, though I am happy with the stock K-77s in my pair so long as i am using tubes for amplification. As far as bass goes, the limiting factor is the size of the bass horn, so there is not a lot you can do except add a subwoofer. Six La Scalas and 4 Heresys would make one hell of a surround sound set-up! []

[BLSamuel]

For the bass I'd use drivers designed for that cabinet. I think somebody once posted that the LaScala uses a 125hz bass horn that's good down to 53hz or so.

Somewhere on the forum there are easy to undo LaScala mods to add a ported bass that's supposed to be good down to 35hz. I'm sure with increase in distortion etc but probably no more than fully ported design than the Cornwall?

12! Wow. 6 is awesome. I've still not got my first 2.

Have fun!

[BLSamuel]

Six La Scalas and 4 Heresys would make one hell of a surround sound set-up!

I've heard Indy's 7 industrial split LaScalas home theater and it is spectacular. THX subs to augment the bass. Not sure I've heard better .... not by a lot if I have.

[Balaroue]

Thanks for the replies!

They will be used in a Pro Audio set up, not home use. I have 12500 sq ft of floor space to cover. Currently Im using 6 mackie SA1530zs & 4 mackie 408's (eaw loaded-which means rcf loaded). I was considering swapping them out for RCF pro4's or BMS Codas, but with the cost of them I figured I may be better off just bringing my Klipschs back to life. Im sure I can load the La Scalas & Heresys and blow them away, and maybe for less $$.

I have subs... six CV earthquakes, so the low end is covered. Its the volume in the 50-80 range I want to improve. I dont know what woofer I should go with, but from experience I know most that Ive tried in the past need spacers (they hit). It would be nice to know what would work well. The subs are not always on, so it would be nice to extend the range of them a little lower. I read a few threads here where people ported with good results. Some used the top & went out the back, others used an added vent on the bottom. Is there a consensus as to which method is better?

All are from the late 70's or very early 80's, so Im sure the crossovers could use some help. Thanks for the Crites link, seems reasonable.

For drivers, I was leaning towards BMS for a few reasons. I do love the actual Pro stuff from JBL, but theyre pricing has gone through the roof over the years! I loved the old bullets, but theyre no longer making them... not sure about the replacements, havent heard enough to form a valid opinion. JBL repairs are very overpriced. BMS has become the high end standard in club installs these days, with great results. They do make drivers and/or horns that would appear to fit my cabs. Most of all, they sound great (the few Ive heard anyway). I will stay with a dedicated mid. I am open to other suggestions for brands though.

I think Id rather stay passive, but Im willing to run biamp if I need to. Basically, Im willing to do whatever I need to. I do like many of the mods here... the braces to firm up the sidewalls (from experience, anything other then the oem woofer needs them), the little corner pieces in the rear of the bins seems like they would be an improvement. Smart people here.

Although Im looking to bump the volume & dispersion here, please understand its with quality in mind!

[Balaroue]

Ugg, I typed that in 5 or 6 paragraphs, yet it posted as one! Not sure how to "reply" here yet!

[Guest " "]

where are you located? I got a 12X18 storage unit filled with klipsch parts. woofers, mid drivers, tweeters, xovers, bass bins, top sections, etc.

[Balaroue]

I'm a bit north of Boston. If I need parts I'll message you for sure.

[Marvel]

Ugg, I typed that in 5 or 6 paragraphs, yet it posted as one! Not sure how to "reply" here yet!

You are probably using Safari on a Mac.

You will need to insert a new paragraph code (unfortunately). Use a less than character ( < ), a 'p', and a greater than character ( > ). If I type it in, it will just add the return/new paragraph.

Welcome to the forum. Porting the cabinet our through the top and back or with an add on box underneath makes now difference. The box is easier to do and obviously, easier to remove to go back to stock.

Bruce

[Islander]

As another poster mentioned, it's best to stick with the K-33 or K-43 Klipsch woofers. They're designed to work well with the La Scala bass horn, and people have found that installing more expensive woofers rarely improves the sound.

[Balaroue]

Thanks for the replies!

I can attest to that! I can't say the replacements I used sounded any better, if at all. They were louder though, but not as tight. That was the issue with them to begin with really... that the poor high's (little sound & poor dispersion), and after years of use they sounded sort of dead (lifeless). The woofers are not that much more $$, so I don't mind trying them out. Does anyone have a link to a place that sells the k-33's or 43's? I'll certianly have a look.

What ever drivers I go with, I think my plan is to refurb one speaker, and see how it sounds. I don't want to purchase 10 sets of drivers and find it's not what I'm after!

I've had a look at what I have, and I guess I'm lucky as their all AA crossovers. The Heresy's are all origonal (meaning not the II or III) so I can assume they have the type E... are the E's ok to work with? Not much onfo on them here from what I can find.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but is the port size based on the cabinet, the actual driver used, or both? In looking around this forum, I see there's ports through the bottom & out the front, ports only through the top & out the back, and yet another who ported from the bottom but cut into the top & blocked the back... some with tubes & some without. Seems to be several formulas for the ports, but I don't have enough knowledge to figure the math. I know the port will give me a bit lower hz (and maybe a bit higher db)... but I'd want to keep as much of the tighter horn bass that these are known for so I don't want to over-do the port project! The bass in today's music (not counting hip hop) more or less needs more in the 40-60 range then the LaSclas have. I'm asking because it may lead me to one driver over another. Maybe I can replace the drivers & have a listen, if it's not enough... try the low port idea and hear the difference.

[Islander]

La Scalas start rolling off at 90-100Hz, so raising the upper cut-off on your subs could help in the 40-60Hz range. The "small" size of the bass horn really limits the low bass, but it makes the speakers relatively portable, so it's a trade-off. The various porting schemes are tweaks that boost the bass a bit, but they won't turn La Scalas into bass monsters.

For pro sound use, the K-43 woofers are preferred, since they have a higher power rating and are what's used in the Industrial La Scalas.

Luckily, you're not short in the subwoofage department, so use the tools you have. For starters, dial your sub cut-off up to 100Hz and see how it sounds with your speakers. I've got my sub working all the way up to 150Hz, and the system doesn't sound bass-heavy, it sounds natural, with all kinds of music.

For the high end, Bob Crites/BEC's CT125 tweeters sound better than the K-77s and have a higher power rating, so they may be more reliable in your application.

If your crossovers are over 15-20 years old, new caps will improve the tone and clarity and don't cost much, so you'll want to at least refresh a pair of speakers and see if that brings the sound more to your liking.

[Marvel]

The various porting schemes are tweaks that boost the bass a bit, but they won't turn La Scalas into bass monsters.

Flat to aprox. 30Hz seems pretty good to me...

Bruce

[garyeanderson]

I guess I would start by going back and re reading every post again on porting the La Scala bass bin. You seem to be well stocked with La Scala’s and to make them work for your application would be a great start I would think. If you missed any, Neil has a good listing on his post on porting a pair for a high school band room.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/76770.aspx?PageIndex=1

These may help too but probably a duplicate of the above.

http://forums.klipsch.com/search/SearchResults.aspx?q=%22ported++La+Scala%22+AND+sectionid%3a6&o=Relevance

If you would like to hear some ported base bins with the stock K33 woofer, I am on the south shore and have a pair of La Scala clone bass bins that that complement a pair of Klipschorn's that have had the backs enclosed to look likeTSCM bass bins. All of my music is on vinyl so that may be one reason that it sounds the way it does. The tops are stock Klipschorn so they need some work there but the La Scala seem to keep up and Complement the Klipschorns nicely.

The build of the La Scala bass bins is detailed here

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/137782.aspx

I am a rookie and can't help on details of what and why it works. I don't know what a stock La Scala sounds like, as I have never heard them before. I guess I just like to play around with old Klipschorns and other heritage stuff.

[FranJ]

If it's pro sound use, DO NOT change the original midrange driver for anything else! Only the K55V (M) driver can stand being crossed over at 400Hz/6dB, especially in high power application! Other drivers you might encounter on these forum are used in hi-fi systems, often with SET amp, then it's ok, but for high power you're stuck with the stock driver (wich is not a bad thing)! Any other one would just BLOW!

As for woofers, if you can find K43 woofers, get them -not sure Klipsch still makes them- but you can stay with K33E and cross your speakers active around 80 or 100Hz; leave the first two octaves for your subs, and your LaScalas shouldn't blow woofers anymore.

If they sound lifeless, I would check the tweeters and midrgange diaphragms, some might be dead. Then recap the crossovers, they'll come back to life.

I wouldn't port the cabinets for pro use -the difference in bass you will get is not worth the increase in distortion and cone excursion, especially as you're using dedicated subs, makes no sense.

Please note that most upgrades you see on this forum are dedicated to a better sound quality, but I can't think of any of them making your Klipsch more powerful (except maybe AlK's extreme slope crossovers, but for 6 speakers it'd start getting expensive) ; some of those mods might actually DECREASE power handling, so be careful.

now have fun and keep us posted

[Balaroue]

OK, so does anyone have a link to a location that sells k-43's? I sure can’t locate any. There are no drivers of any kind listed on the Klipsch site that I can see.

Yes, I do have 6 subs, and yes crossing them higher-ish would help... IF I didn’t have 12500 sq ft to cover. I’d need at least another 6 to have any impact with that route, even with the long throw. I have timing & dispersion issues as it is!

Gary, glad to hear about the vinyl... I have thousands! I had removed my 33's long ago, but thank you for the offer. Nice work btw.

Fran, your post made me think, then re-think. I really don’t know what difference a port will make in my application (yes, I play very loud). I can read all the posts here with various numbers... but I’d rather follow my ears. With that, if I go this route I will build a simple under-box port (using dimensions found in this forum) and see what I get. If it doesn’t do much/anything, I can simply put the stock bottom on and call it a day. I do face a bigger issue then all that are here with this... as mine are flown. Hard to believe, I know, but they were. Without the benefit of the floor/walls, I loose much of the bass right off the bat. Not really any way around it though.

I do think my original k55's (in the k400's) are ok, so yes I’d need new caps if I stay passive. I do need new tweeters. After reading much here, I think I may run active... depending on how I do this & with what drivers. My favorite thing about the LS was the mids. I do hope they still fire ok, but if not I’ll go with something different (which from what I can see would result in new horns). If that’s the case, I’ll definitely go active.

Although I was looking at bms drivers, after looking at their site I’m not sure they have a 15" that will work in a folded horn. I’ll have to chat them up & see. Boo.

[Tom Mobley]

Talk to Bob Crites. He may have or can get something that works for a K43.