SWL Posted April 24, 2011 Author Share Posted April 24, 2011 Here's what we did (shaking my head as I'm typing): 1. Test tone disc = Played tones to the tweets, mids and woofers seperately. The tones to the tweets and woofers had nothing suspicious going on. Using an spl meter everything was equal. (Scott 299 not bi-amped) The mids however, had the right side 3db hotter than the left. We swapped the right and left midrange drivers and the right speaker continued to be 3db hotter. We experimented all the tones in stereo and mono. As I said, the midrange raised the only red flag. At this point we're thinking something's up with the right speakers crossover. 2. Hooked up the KLF-30's. Imaging, soundstage, sound quality was phenomenal. We finally heard something image in this room.....for about ten minutes. Then we decided to bi-amp the 30's with the Scott on top and the Mac 2500 on the bottom. Gone. No imaging, nothing. Checked wiring, still no luck. 3. Hooked the 30's back up to the Scott by itself, not bi-amped like before when it worked so good......nothing. We dicked around with wire swapping and anything we could think of for the next hour and a half only to never get the imaging back. So now, neither the Chorus ll's or the KLF-30's will image in this room. One thing that was odd while trying to get the imaging back.......it never came back like it did initially with the 30's but I would hear it go in and out in a faint kind of way.......and the right side was always 2-3db hotter than the left. We adjusted the balance accordingly with some success but never entirely. Strange. So as of right now, the Chorus ll's have never imaged. Not in this room and not in my room at my house where the 30's did. The 30's imaged in this room initially, very well I might add, but we lost it and never got it back. Hope this makes sense to someone.....I probably left a few things out.[:S] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 I would think having 2-3dB hotter in the mid range would certainly contribute to poor imaging. Problem with using the balance is that you are changing the balance on all three drivers in that speaker and that only moves the problem to the other drivers. It is starting to seem like there is a problem with the crossovers....which would make sense considering all the troubleshooting you have been doing. Now, the imaging problem with the KLF-30s post bi-amp is likely an issue with speaker placement the second time around. You just happen to hit great placement the first time. It seems to me it is not the room, but is due to a driver or crossover problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 24, 2011 Author Share Posted April 24, 2011 Now, the imaging problem with the KLF-30s post bi-amp is likely an issue with speaker placement the second time around. Speaker placement was exactly the same as the first time. We marked the floor. In my room, I can toe them in and out.....move them forward and backward and they image no matter what (within reason). It seems to me it is not the room, but is due to a driver or crossover problem.When we hooked the 30's back up to the Scott not bi-amped everything was exactly the same as when they did image. Why would it change? We even went as far as changing interconnects, changing tubes in the Scott and changing tubes in the cd player as well as trying a differnt cd player.We even went all solid state including a $4000.00 preamp with the Mac 2500 giving us the same results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Man, I'm stumped. Things just don't seem to make sense with the KLF 30's after bi-amping.....maybe the room is possessed and it doesn't like music! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 24, 2011 Author Share Posted April 24, 2011 Also, took the Furman out of the mix and plugged directly into the wall with no change. Given the fact that the Chorus ll's have never imaged in either room.....and taking into consideration the KLF-30's imaged with flying colors and then 30 minutes later they would not and would never again image no matter what we tried......leads me to believe there is something wrong with the x-over in the Chorus ll's and there is something going on with the gear itself. I just hope that the x-overs in the 30's are ok now. [:^)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 24, 2011 Author Share Posted April 24, 2011 Man, I'm stumped. Things just don't seem to make sense with the KLF 30's after bi-amping.....maybe the room is possessed and it doesn't like music! Yeah......Gremlins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormin Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Hey Scott, How about a bad interconnect. I've bought new ones in the past and had them give me fits. Never could figure out what was going on and it turned out to be a bad interconnect. Just a thought. Sure is strange whats going on. Almost sounds like some piece of gear is eating x-overs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 24, 2011 Author Share Posted April 24, 2011 Almost sounds like some piece of gear is eating x-overs. My thoughts as well.We tried four different sets of interconnects. Mike was gonna hook up some el cheapo ones he had out in his garage. Missin' that Marantz yet? We were cracking up when we hooked up the $4000.00 preamp.[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidF Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I think the only thing I have not heard mentioned is the speaker wire. That would be common to all of the interchanged components? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 I think the only thing I have not heard mentioned is the speaker wire.Yeah, we talked about it but never got around to changing it. He's gonna try different speaker wire and some ADS speakers. He's also gonna continue to try different amps, preamps and interconnects again to see if there's any rhyme or reason to what's going on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 Almost sounds like some piece of gear is eating x-overs.According to Bob Crites, the speaker would fail before the x-over will. We didn't notice the speakers to fail.....other than the lack of imaging. [^o)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechnut Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Did you try the 30's that you took on the road trip back at home and see if they'd image again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 26, 2011 Author Share Posted April 26, 2011 Did you try the 30's that you took on the road trip back at home and see if they'd image again? Yeah...they do. Thanks for asking. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Yeah...they do. Thanks for asking. I think the other location has a spirit that just doesn't like music! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 30, 2011 Author Share Posted April 30, 2011 Here we go again.....with Fortes. Mike took a day off work and spent the whole time determined to get some answers. Well, he found one. Right now he's borrowing forum member "Southern" Forte l's. Mike found that his speaker wire was out of phase. It has no writing on it or any other indication of what is positive or negative other than some red tape he put on there in the past which was in fact, WRONG!!! [:@] LOL Now, with the Scott 299 alone (not bi-amped) he was getting proper imaging. Woo Hoo! Not so fast......hot to trot on bi-amping the Forte's the celebration was short lived. They would not image bi-amped. [] Some amount of time went by (I don't know how long) and he hooked the Scott back up (not bi-amped) and the magic was back. [] Fast forward two days and I came over with my solid state amp for the woofers to see if there was something wrong with his solid state Mac 2500. First, I walk in the door, sit in the sweet spot and the imaging is right on. Sounded very nice. Ok....let's bi-amp it with my solid state amp on the woofers. Same thing, no imaging. Hooked it back up to the Scott alone, no imaging. It's doing the same thing with the Fortes as it did with the KLF-30's. [:S] We decided to unplug everything, go outside for a while and look at the ground with dumb looks on our faces. Mike was enjoying his cigarrette. I was enjoying the second hand smoke. Then about 20 minutes later we went and plugged everything back in. Mike swears the imaging came back. I swear it "kinda" came back. I just know that when it's imaging properly, there's no denying it. It's there. It reminded me exactly what it was doing with the KLF-30's. It would image faintly but would be mostly just coming at you from the speakers. The cohesiveness in between would come and go but the imaging was never as vivid as it was when we started. Could something be happening as a result from all the swapping of wires, plugging and unplugging etc.? [:^)] In the meantime, Crites has the Chorus ll x-overs for inspection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 When you bi-amp, intentionally reverse the polarity on the woofers. Do any of your amps have any sort of time delay or phase settings that may be set 180 degrees out? There has to be some explanation for this. Hey, at least you can get them to image in a stock configuration. Good catch on that unlabeled wire...I knew it had to be a driver out of phase....keep at it, the perseverence will pay off in the long run and you gain some knowledge along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidF Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Yikes, suggests intermittent and so a grounding or crossed connection somewhere. Maybe you mentioned before but is this a passive or active bi amp setup being used. Were the original system terminal boxes set up for bi amp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 30, 2011 Author Share Posted April 30, 2011 Maybe you mentioned before but is this a passive or active bi amp setup being used. Were the original system terminal boxes set up for bi amp? Passive. The KLF-30's were set up for passive bi-amp from the factory. The Chorus ll's and Fortes were modded to accomodate passive bi-amping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 30, 2011 Author Share Posted April 30, 2011 There has to be some explanation for this. Hey, at least you can get them to image in a stock configuration.Yeah, but then we lose it after attempting the bi-amping. Weird.Next, we're gonna put resistors on the Scott when in the bi-amp configuration as mentioned by Southern. This is what I do with mine. SET12 told me to do this originally because without the resistors there is no load on the amp because it's only powering the mids-tweets. Perhaps this is affecting the imaging in the bi-amp configuration.....and explains somewhat why it images with the Scott alone and doesn't when it's bi-amped. We'll give it a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 If it sounds great not bi-amped why mess with a good thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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