rongon Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Hi there Klipsch fans! I've been searching the 'net for advice on larger, more efficient speakers, which of course led me here. I see there are a lot of people who dearly love their Klipsch speakers. I wonder if I would too? -------- I should mention that I am on a very low budget. That's probably why my searching has led to the KG series. I checked around and found a pair of used KG4.5 for sale near me. It's a bit of a hassle to get to them, and I won't get to hear them in my system before I buy. So I thought I'd ask for some advice first... -------- First some background. I have a little (homebrew) 6 watt-per-channel, push-pull 2A3 amp. It currently drives a pair of early 1980s Tannoy T185 Dorset. I like this combo a lot, but the woofer voice coils are beginning to rub, and there are no re-cone kits available for those drivers. It's inevitable that I will have to replace them, and Tannoy speakers ain't what they used to be... But I understand that the Tannoy sound is thought to be more "polite" than the Klipsch family sound. True? -------- I don't listen to contemporary pop music at all. I mostly like classic 1950s, '60s acoustic jazz (Blue Note, Prestige, etc.), a few contemporary jazz artists (Danilo Perez, Keith Jarrett, Kurt Rosenwinkel...), Late Romantic and Early Modern classical music, Beethoven string quartets, Bach, and some '50s and '60s blues recordings. ---------- I did have the good fortune to hear a pair of Klipshorn, back about twenty years ago. They were being driven by a big 1970s Japanese receiver. I expected them to sound like PA speakers, but no, they were *exceptional*. Better than Altec A7 VOT's, as subjectively clean and detailed as B&W 801, but oh my what dynamics! K-horns are among the best speakers I have ever heard. ---------- A few years later, a friend of mine got a pair of Heresy (I don't know which series, but this was about 1995 or so). He was driving them with small, single-ended triode amps, and I was expecting to really like the combination. But I was very disappointed. The Heresy confirmed my worst fears about horn speakers. They sounded great on old blues and rock music, like you were in the club -- but they sounded harsh and squawky playing a Beethoven string quartet, and not much better on orchestral recordings. They didn't seem to be at all similar to the K-horns. I was bummed, and scratched the less-expensive Klipsch speakers off my list. ------- I have read lots of raves about the La Scala. But I don't have the budget for those. I've read that the more contemporary Klipsch designs are "more refined," which I hope means better damped and so sound better playing classical music. Maybe they're more what I want than the Heresy... --------- I'll only be able to hear the KG4.5' speakers driven by a fairly standard receiver, which I don't expect to be much like my 2A3 amp. -------- Do you think there's a chance I'll like the KG4.5 driven by a 2A3 amp? Or is the KG4.5 a brash "rock n roll" speaker, more like the Heresy than a 1980s Tannoy? ------- Thanks for any advice you can send my way, and sorry for the long first post. -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 From my experience the Klipsch two way designs have a little bit more smooth output than the 3 way designs. I personally like the Klipsch 3 way sound - it seems more lively and live sounding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rongon Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 I don't know why my posts don't show line breaks. Kind of a drag that the words are all strung together... --------------- From my experience the Klipsch two way designs have a little bit more smooth output than the 3 way designs. I personally like the Klipsch 3 way sound - it seems more lively and live sounding. --------------- Hi Wuzzzer, thanks for your reply. ---------------- Are you more of a rock and pop fan, or more to the acoustic music (classical and jazz) side of things? I find that people's taste in music has a lot to do with what kind of sound reproduction they favor. For instance, a live concert of a string quartet does not involve any microphones or amplification, while a rock band will have lots of mics and amplification involved. Classical music fans usually like more "polite" sounding speakers than rock fans. Not always, but usually. That's why I ask... ---------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tromprof Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I too have owned Tannoy speakers, I used to have a pair of System 12 studio monitors before I got my k-horns. Tannoy are great speakers and in many way similar to Klipsch, but perhaps less so with the KG series and more with the "Heritage" line. The Heresy and Forte speakers are great speakers, but like the Tannoys, they will let you know if you are feeding them garbage. I am a professional classical musician and lived very happily for many years with a pair of Fortes (basically a bigger Heresy) and it sounded great for strings, maybe something was ill in your friends Heresy setup. The KG line IMO is more a rock and roll speaker and certainly can't compete with the 3 way Heritage stuff. Heresys pop up here for $300-400, Fortes $300-500, and La Scalas $600-$1000. Good luck with the search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I'm a big fan of the KG line of speakers, even though they were designed primarily to fill the HT niche. However, the ones you are considering are only 95Bd efficient, and I'd be surprised if a 2a3 SET amp could do them justice. I think you would love the detail, but slowly come to realize that 6 watts is simply not going to be able to drive even a 10" woofer with any authority. In other words, you won't get any bottom end, and I'm not talking about thumping bottom end, simply a realistic curve across the spectrum.. This is not a dig at SET, just my own feelings. I've owned four pairs of KG's by the way. Bang for the buck, they are hard to beat, but you need to drive them differently, or pick up some KG bookshelves, which sound great and can be driven by the 2A3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I have KG 4.2's, Heresies, and La Scalas in operation. My KG's are my Left/Right on my main HT setup, and they are excellent in that position. As for listening speakers for your type of music, you really really need to look into the La Scala. Your music passions are almost identical to mine, and the La Scalas do those things better than any speaker on the planet. If you want to dig below the 50 Hz or so, then add a nice subwoofer to the arrangement. You can buy La Scalas regularly for $800-1200/pair used. Good luck! edit: Seriously, demo some blues on a LaScala setup. It doesn't matter where, what amp, inside or outside, and you will be sold. Khorns are good if you have corners, and more cash. Oddly, the La Scalas seem to do classical, blues and country music best. IMO of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 rongon, Nice first post! The reason you're not getting line breaks in your first post may be because of a common problem with folks using the Safari browser. Is that what you're using? If so, try using Firefox-it's what I use. Any Klipsch speaker you might use will be very revealing. If the source material is flawed, you'll know it. If you can "try before you buy" it would be good. Are you listening to CDs, LPs, or some other media? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rongon Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Wow, that's a lot of answers! Thanks everybody. OK, where to start... First, I was using Chrome, which is based on similar stuff as Safari, so that answers the line breaks question. I'm using Internet Destroyer for this post. While I do listen to blues music once in awhile, I'm really more of an acoustic jazz and classical music person. I mostly listen to stuff like Miles Davis, Bill Evans, Sonny Rollins, Ornette Coleman, Bach, Mahler and Bartok. I'll listen to some B.B. King, T-Bone Walker or Muddy Waters every once in a while. Very rarely I'll put on some James Brown or Mahalia Jackson, or get nostalgic with some Weather Report or ******* Brew. I listen to a fair amount of LPs. I prefer SACD to CD, but I do have a lot of CDs. I listen to a local college FM station too (WKCR, Columbia University's station -- they have some great jazz, Indian and Western classical music on there). My SACD player is a Pioneer PD-D6-J. For CDs I use a Sony SCD-CE595 changer driving a Behringer SRC-2496, used as an upsampler/DAC (it's just OK). The tuner is a mid-1960s Lafayette LT-78 I picked out of the trash(!) and refurbished a bit (replaced leaky capacitors). Revealing speakers are fine by me! If the KG4.5 is very revealing, then I hope it'll reveal that I've carefully put together a little system that I think does justice to the source material. Technics SL1200MK2 with Denon DL110, all-tube phono preamp with triode-wired E810F and 5687 tubes, a simple little line amp with a 6N30P tube run at a hefty 20mA per side and an Intact Audio inductive attenuator (volume control), into my long-tailed pair 6N6P DC-coupled to push-pull 2A3 amp with Tango output transformers. BTW, it's not a single-ended triode (SET) amp, it's push-pull. Push-pull results in a lower output impedance and higher damping factor, so I find is better at driving most real-world loudspeakers than a comparable SET amp. My PP 2A3 amp pushes the Tannoy speakers pretty well, even though the speakers' rated efficiency is only 91dB/1W/1m. I get good bass from them, if a bit loose. The T185 model I have is known for that, as it has a passive radiator. I've found that low-power triode amps work best with speakers that have a fairly flat impedance curve, or at least one without any huge peaks and troughs. It's not a matter of efficiency by itself. Some fairly efficient speakers are a bear to drive, with wide variations in impedance at different frequencies. That can cause a weenie tube amp a lot of trouble. There are also some inefficient closed-box speakers that I've found work well with weenie tube amps, such as the Snell Type J (they sound good but don't go very loud). I'm sure I would love a pair of La Scala. But this year I'll need a new car, and I'll be moving soon. If I find that I love the Klipsch sound, then maybe that'll be something to save up for. Or maybe the Forte, if it sounds "warmer" than the Heresy. In the lower reaches of the Klipsch lines, I've noticed that the KSF 10 and KSF 20 models are well-regarded. They're also more efficient than the KG models. Does that mean they're more aggressive sounding too? Are KSF models closer in sound to the Heritage line than KG? What would you say are the most "relaxed" or "refined" sounding of the Klipsch models? What about the current models? Are they more "polite" sounding than the older models? I could go over to J&R and ask them to play something for me. I've just never had good luck auditioning speakers in showrooms. They always sound very different with tube amps and in my little home. thebes mentioned the KG bookshelf speakers as being easier to drive than the KG floorstanders. Maybe that puts the RF-51 and RF-61 into play? Do you think those would work with a PP 2A3 amp in a small room, listened to at close range, "near field monitor" style? At any rate, I'll be hearing the KG4.5's tomorrow evening. I'll let you know how it turns out. -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rongon Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Maybe that puts the RF-51 and RF-61 into play? Do you think those would work with a PP 2A3 amp in a small room, listened to at close range, "near field monitor" style? Oops, I meant RB-51 or RB-61. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 The KG speakers sound great. Compared to the LaScala's they are definitely relaxed. I don't know about the KSL stuff, sorry. One thing you mentioned that struck me as off was when you said you didn't like the horn type speakers. With Jazz and instrumental music, IMO, they are brighter, and more realistic than surface mounted tweets and squaks. I think the Khorns you listened to were right, and the Heresies were set up badly somehow. The Heresy was designed in 1957 to be a center channel speaker for the KHorns, so they should sound just the same without the deep bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I don't know why my posts don't show line breaks. Kind of a drag that the words are all strung together... --------------- From my experience the Klipsch two way designs have a little bit more smooth output than the 3 way designs. I personally like the Klipsch 3 way sound - it seems more lively and live sounding. --------------- Hi Wuzzzer, thanks for your reply. ---------------- Are you more of a rock and pop fan, or more to the acoustic music (classical and jazz) side of things? I find that people's taste in music has a lot to do with what kind of sound reproduction they favor. For instance, a live concert of a string quartet does not involve any microphones or amplification, while a rock band will have lots of mics and amplification involved. Classical music fans usually like more "polite" sounding speakers than rock fans. Not always, but usually. That's why I ask... ---------- Of the genres you mentioned definitely more rock than the others. Especially live concerts (Pink Floyd, Heart, Kenny Chesney, Styx, Elton John). Live concerts sound truly LIVE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 rongon, where are you located? I'm sure many here (myself included) would be happy to have you audition their speakers, and let you bring over your equipment to demo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironsave Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I have had almost every KG speaker at some point. (Never the 4.5s; but I did have the 5.2s; which are pretty similar). My opinion.... The KG line is the best value out there (along with Heresy Is and Fortes if they can be found at the $250-$400 range). The KG 5.2s are capable of making things fall off of shelves; while remaining clear and detailed. I also recommend the KG 2.2/ 2.5s as they are an excellent bookshelf. (Can't knock things down with them; but very nice sounding speakers). I drove mine with an Onkyo TX SR702 and I could hear these down the block! (I live on the second floor). I think the KGs are very different sounding then a Heresy. ( I do not classify Heresy Is as a "brash rock and roll speaker". They are quite detailed and when set up properly; they throw a soundstage that is incredibly huge and detailed). The KGs definitely were excellent at producing bass, and not quite as detailed; still sounded excellent. If you can get them for around $150-$250 that is a nice deal. $250 and up? Save your $ and get Forte or Heresy (Heresy with a sub). Good Luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rongon Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 rongon, where are you located? I'm sure many here (myself included) would be happy to have you audition their speakers, and let you bring over your equipment to demo! Thanks fini. I live in NYC; will be moving up the river in a couple of months. Wuzzzer, that's what I expected after hearing from others about the Klipsch "house sound." Rock fans usually love Klipsch speakers because they make amplified music sound like you're there at the concert. It's the acoustic music people who tell me that they find them to be too aggressive. Then again, those same people -- who usually prefer B&W, Snell or Spendor -- also don't like the 1980s vintage Tannoy sound, which I happen to like. Hence my questions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironsave Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I'm sure I would love a pair of La Scala. But this year I'll need a new car, and I'll be moving soon. If I find that I love the Klipsch sound, then maybe that'll be something to save up for. Or maybe the Forte, if it sounds "warmer" than the Heresy. What would you say are the most "relaxed" or "refined" sounding of the Klipsch models? At any rate, I'll be hearing the KG4.5's tomorrow evening. I'll let you know how it turns out. -- I am not sure why you think Heresy speakers do not sound good. FWIW; a Heresy setup with a good subwoofer sounds every bit as good as Forte speakers. They sounded nuetral with my Onkyo; and now slightly warm with the HK receiver in my siggy. Excellent detail. Listen to "Tusk" by Fleetwood Mac on them; you will see. The most "refined"? wow that's a toss up. Palladiums probably? What's the most "refined" affordable? I would say K Horns or Jubes. (At least 1/2 price of the PF 39s) What's the most "refined" I have actually heard? The La Scalas with a sub. The Chorus IIs I heard were up there also. (Not as refined; but more "in your face; and punch you in the gut".......) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rongon Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 I have had almost every KG speaker at some point. (Never the 4.5s; but I did have the 5.2s; which are pretty similar). My opinion.... The KG line is the best value out there (along with Heresy Is and Fortes if they can be found at the $250-$400 range). The KG 5.2s are capable of making things fall off of shelves; while remaining clear and detailed. I also recommend the KG 2.2/ 2.5s as they are an excellent bookshelf. (Can't knock things down with them; but very nice sounding speakers). I drove mine with an Onkyo TX SR702 and I could hear these down the block! (I live on the second floor). I think the KGs are very different sounding then a Heresy. ( I do not classify Heresy Is as a "brash rock and roll speaker". They are quite detailed and when set up properly; they throw a soundstage that is incredibly huge and detailed). The KGs definitely were excellent at producing bass, and not quite as detailed; still sounded excellent. If you can get them for around $150-$250 that is a nice deal. $250 and up? Save your $ and get Forte or Heresy (Heresy with a sub). Good Luck. Thanks ironsave. The owner is asking $250 for the pair. He says they're in excellent condition. I'm not so much interested in knocking things off shelves as I am in giving my low-power tube amps a really easy load to drive. The triode tube amps are far more detailed and revealing than other amps I've had (Van Alstine-modified Dynaco Stereo 70, Hafler TA-1100, Scott 299). The pentode (Dyna, Scott) amps sound dark and wooly in comparison, the solid state amp sounds crispy and harsh by comparison. So for clarity, you'd choose Heresy or Forte, but for most bass whoomph for the money, you'd choose a KG floorstander? I guess I'll have to give a pair of Forte a serious listen. I was trying to recall what my friend's setup was like with the Heresy's, and I think it was a CD player straight into a stereo volume control ("passive preamp") into a single-ended triode-wired EL34 amp. It might be that the amp couldn't deal with the Heresy's impedance spike(s) around the crossover frequencies, and so blared in the mids. The other speakers he was using were a pair of Boston Acoustics bookshelf models, which are not in the same league. He might have been better off with a less demanding speaker with those amps. That was a long time ago, and I wish I knew then what I know now. (That's something I find myself saying a lot these days...) At any rate, I'm bringing some CDs with me to audition the KG4.5's tonight. Maybe they'll float my boat, maybe not. I'll let y'all know. -- PS -- I see the RB-61 is 95dB/1w/1m efficient, and goes down to 44Hz (-3dB). That's pretty impressive for less than $500 new. Can anyone give me their impressions on how RB-61 II sound compared to Forte or KG series? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironsave Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 So for clarity, you'd choose Heresy or Forte, but for most bass whoomph for the money, you'd choose a KG floorstander? Yep; that is probably pretty accurate. I think three way speakers (by Klipsch) just tend to have more detail and presence; while trading off nothing. (Yes; The Heresy generally lacks bass; but it was by design. A good sub works wonders)..... $250 is reasonable. Let us know how you like them; and if you bring them home.... PICS! [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rongon Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 I am not sure why you think Heresy speakers do not sound good. FWIW; a Heresy setup with a good subwoofer sounds every bit as good as Forte speakers. They sounded nuetral with my Onkyo; and now slightly warm with the HK receiver in my siggy. I missed this post somehow. I think my impression of the Heresy was colored by the system it was in. J&R might have a pair of Heresy on display. You're convincing me that I should give them a second chance. Forte might be just the ticket, as I don't need rattle-the-walls bass. I just need some bass (-3dB down at 45 or 50 Hz would be nice). The most "refined"? wow that's a toss up. Palladiums probably? What's the most "refined" affordable? I would say K Horns or Jubes. (At least 1/2 price of the PF 39s) What's the most "refined" I have actually heard? The La Scalas with a sub. The Chorus IIs I heard were up there also. (Not as refined; but more "in your face; and punch you in the gut".......) Hmmm... K-horns and La Scalas. I did like the K-horns I heard, and I've heard many good things about La Scala from weenie-tube amp users. I believe there is a consensus. Now all I need is the money! Thanks for your replies, they've helped me a lot. -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironsave Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 FWIW, The Heresy III is the best Heresy by far.... (~$1600 per pair)..... You owe it to yourself to give the Heresy I (or III or II) a second listen. (I am willing to bet it was the equipment running them that left something to be desired)...... Fortes are an awesome all around speaker...... KGs are definitely a great budget speaker........ Decisions; decisions..... lol...... [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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