Desperate need for advice on an AMP for my HT

[Lpusedyou]

I am fairly new to the whole world of home theater audio as I've only had the system in my signature for almost a year now. I understand the basic pros of having an amp but I guess I'm just not sure how much power I need exactly. I definitely use my system for HT primarily and only some music here and there (probably like 80/20).

I currently power all of my speakers, except the self powered sub, using the Pioneer VSX-1020K receiver. It is rated at 110 watts per channel at 8 ohms. I currently have the front RF-82 towers bi-amped to utilize the unused rear surround channels since I am only running 5.1. I would say I listen to my system at a medium volume most of the time (master volume on the Pioneer at -28 to -34). However, if I'm pretty psyched about a new movie or CD then I crank it up (master volume at about -15 to -22). While I don't hear clipping or any distortion I guess I just expect a little more punch and boom (sorry to use layman's terms) from my system. It sounds good for sure but it just leaves me wondering if I should be using an amp like some of you HT enthusiasts and really be blown away.

Finally to my question haha. Sorry I just wanted to give all the background info I could so that you didn't have to ask a million questions and wait on my response, etc. I'm an avid craigslister and buyer of used equipment to avoid ridiculously high retail prices. So based on your advice, I plan to purchase one of the amps listed below and I was hoping you could offer me some insight as for which one would be the best for me. I really only plan on using the amp to power the front 3 speakers but only because I don't think the rear Polks need it. Any opinion on that would be great as well.

Adcom GFA-6000: $225

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/ele/2513108431.html

Adcom GFA-5500: $300

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/ele/2562714442.html

CARVER PM-1200: $395

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/msg/2560472184.html

Emotiva UPA-5: $400

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/ele/2554155272.html

[MikeFord]

I'm not a big believer in using amps to change the character of the sound, and I like my home theater to be as simple as possible. I would look first to how the system is setup, selections on the receiver and the subwoofer, and how the speakers are positioned in the room.

Have you used any of the DVDs with step by step calibration?

How do you have your subwoofer and speakers setup with your reciever?

[jrod]

Give this little guy a look...

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1318713029&/B-K-Components-AV-5000-5-channel

Great price, and a highly respected name. As I'm sure you are aware the 100w of a seperate amp are WAY different than the 110w of a mass market receiver. I think this could, at least, get you moving in the right direction. Plus, you could try it out, and if it doesn't work, you could easily get your $$ back out of it.

Let us know what you end up with. Good luck!

[JasonJCarney]

I think you'll find that emotiva is highly respected here as a low priced quality amp.

[Quiet_Hollow]

The amp isn't you're problem, gotta get your sub setup right if you want to be "blown away"

[cornfedksboy]

Speaker and sub placement are key! Get that right first. Then fiddle with the receiver. If you aren't where you want to be, then look to an amp. My understanding is that your Pioneer should be giving plently of power to your speakers.

One question: Do you listen to music in 2-channel or 5-channel? My RF-82s are good, not great, in 2-channel even with mono-block amps. The midrange is a little thin as a characteristic of the speakers. I need them to be in 5-channel mode and get the RF-62 moving to get the full effect in the midrange. Also, I run two RW-12ds, which certainly adds to the bass.

[elitedemo]

i would look at getting the upa5 or look into a xpa5 from emotiva, the punch and boom your probably describing that you are missing is the lack of real umph in the rw12 sub, id toy around with the notion of adding a second or selling the one and upgrading that, also toy around with your placement of that sub their might be better locations for some improvement

[Bluehusky]

The ADCom is an awesome AMP, I ran mine for about 17 flawless years first powering my 1983 Heresy I's is forum(that I foolishly gave to a younger brother, who never appreciated what he had) and then I upgraded to a pair of new 1990 Forte II's. Incredible sound, both my wife and I enjoyed listening to our 2-channel system for many years.

Last year decided to add HDTV and Blu-Ray for our enjoyment. After much investigating and many patient questions on this forum we started by adding a KLF C-7 Center Speaker. Then learned about Emotiva and their special sales and bought our UMC-1 proccessor in May 2011. Waited until July 2011 and used some money and credit cards and bought a new 5 channel AMP, the XPA-5.

We have a Sony Bravia 46" LCD HDTV now have it hooked up all together. We were using the three speakers, HDMI/Blu-Ray movie/TV expierence. This past weekend rewatched IronMan (Blu-Ray) on our new UPGRADED system.. Not sure how to explain this, watching this movie again but this time with the new Emotiva System, (with a Center Speaker) was like watching a totally new/different movie, we did not feel we were rewatching this movie, rather felt we were expierencing this movie for the first time. In addition to the gains from the electronics, the speakers were unbelieveable. Heard & greater detail than ever before.

In process of adding a pair of 1984 Hersery I's to serve as our rear speakers, can not wait to complete this deal as it should be an awesome upgrade. Emotiva is at www.emotiva.com they only sale direct, their products are well thought out and perform better than I can explain. Pricing is very reasonable especially for quality seperates on or off sale. We were able to afford more with our savings. Plus they include a 5 year warrenty. Goood luck, any questions please reach out. We all started this hobby once. Unfortunately it is addictive and can be pricey, I find the help from this forum invaluable.

All the best, Jeff

[Lpusedyou]

First off - Thanks to everyone for your responses! I've also found the information on this forum extremely valuable over the past year or so.

MikeFord: Why is that? I mean I get wanting to keep your home theater simple trust me, I definitely don't have the space or money to make it as elaborate as some. Well at least not until further down the road when I have a different house with a dedicated HT room... ;-). The speakers are positioned in the room correctly according to a HT diagram I used when first setting it up. The rears are the only thing I kind of had to make a compromise on by placing them sort of high and just slightly behind the listeners and pointed downward at about 60 degrees or so (because of the layout of the room). I have not played with the placement of the sub though so I will definitely try that. Because of my room layout it has to be either where it is now or the other corner of the same wall.

I haven't used any DVDs for audio calibration except the few steps that were on some of the video calibration DVDs I used.

I have my subwoofer hooked up to my receiver via the Line In R/L ports on the sub to a Y splitter which goes to the Subwoofer port on my receiver. All of he speakers are connected with 12 gauge wire. I've attached pics but I'm sure you know what I mean. If you mean the settings in the receiver itself I believe all of the speakers are set to "small" so that the sub gets all of the low end. I haven't checked this in awhile though since I played around with that setting a few months back. If you meant something else let me know and I'll be happy to check out any specific settings. Also, I used the MCACC automatic setup with the mic and stuff to calibrate. I did not do manual setup or tweaking.

http://media.simplyelectricals.co.uk/catalog/product/cache/2/image/1807a864878b86c201b8b89c4ea458f3/v/s/vsx-1020-k-back.jpg

[Lpusedyou]

Second off - sorry if you get email updates and you get a dozen. The editing function kept on messing up in Chrome for me. I'll just use IE with this site from now on.

Jrod: Thanks for the link to that B&K amp. For 100 wpc to 5 channels for only $270 sounds like a pretty awesome deal. And I don't know first hand that the 100w from this amp is way better than the 110w from my Pioneer but I do trust the people like you that swear by quality amps which is basically why this thread was even started.

I've narrowed it down to the amps below. For my specific setup and needs which do you all think is the best deal considering the price as well (so not just which one is the absolute best amp)?

Adcom GFA-6000: $225 (Per Bluehusky's recommendation and the great price)

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/ele/2513108431.html

Emotiva UPA-5: $400 (Because of the great reviews I've read on it and if/when I upgrade my center & rears this would leave room for growth. However, $400 is the max I am willing to spend. Unfortunately, the craigslist ad has no contact email or phone number listed! Hate when people do that...)

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/ele/2554155272.html

B&K Components AV-5000: $269 (Because of the great price and 100 wpc x 5)

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1318713029&/B-K-Components-AV-5000-5-channel

[Lpusedyou]

Looking back, I regret describing what I feel is missing by just saying I "expect a little more punch and boom from my system". That definitely does make it sound like I am only talking about the low end and the sub as someone mentioned. I also mean that clarity and sharpness in dialogue and music seems like it could be better/fuller. Does anybody think that me bi-amping the front towers may have made the center's sound (dialogue and vocals) less prominent? Just a thought, I dunno.

Cornfedksboy: I believe I have the speaker and sub placement correct, or very close as I really made sure I was doing it all properly in my initial setup. I'll take some pics of the room just to make sure though cuz maybe I'm missing something. You mention that my Pioneer should be giving plenty of power to my speakers but in your sig you have the Onkyo TX-NR708 which gives 110 wpc. Yet you also have 3 Marantz MA500 Monoblock amps right? Do you use those to power your front sound stage? Hopefully you don't take that the wrong way I'm just trying to understand since we have somewhat similar speakers.

For music I usually change the receiver's setting to F.S. Surround or just Stereo. What do you think is the best setting for music? You mentioned 5 channel mode to involve the center so do you use something like Pro LogicII Music or Standard Surround? For movies I almost always use my D-Link Boxee Box (via HDMI) so the setting I choose is Pure Direct and then depending on the movie file (.mkv's) it will switch it to DTS, DD, etc.

[jimafm]

Before you part with money to further complicate the issue, I suggest you check out what you have. It should work just fine. In 40 years, I've never met a sound system I couldn't improve. There's just too much to go wrong.

Here's some things I'd look at:

Lack of "punch" is often undersized speaker wire. Short runs need at least 14ga., low-ox stranded wire labeled speaker wire. Monster is great but overpriced, and you won't gain a thing from specialty wire costing big bucks. The junk that came with the Pioneer, Radio Shack and lamp Cord from the hardware store are a no-no. Over ten feet in length, consider 12ga. Don't worry about the rears, as they don't do squat anyway.

I can't wait to see what the audio crowd has to say about the above.

Then re-check speaker phasing. Put the system in stereo (towers only), stand between the towers and close your eyes. If the music sounds like it's in the middle of your head, you're out of phase. Check all connections at both ends. Next, try the same trick in surround, standing mid way between the center and one tower. This is harder. What you need is crowd noise or something coming out of both the towers and the center at the same volume for this test. Unfortunately, I have yet to see a test disk with this critical track on it.

Phasing is fundamental. Until that is perfect, you will never get where you want to go.

Next, I'm concerned about bi-amping the towers. It's easy to screw that up, so compare your present setup to using the passive crossover Klipsch built them with. If it sounds better, use those extra channels for the bedroom or terrace. Not that I think you are dumb, just that I've found it to be a common problem with electronic crossovers in general. Even if you have the Pioneer properly configured in the menu, I don't trust the Pioneer to do what it claims it is doing.

As for the "boom", consider our old friend phasing. Put on some bass-heavy stereo music (towers only; Pioneer in "Stereo" mode) and have someone else flip the phase switch on the sub while you listen for the best bottom (i.e. smoothest and loudest) while sitting in your normal listening position. Ignore the opinion of the tester person. They are too close to the forest (sub) to hear a tree fall. Next, have your tester person vary the crossover point. Less is best. Every time you increase the crossover point by an octave, you increase the distortion and lower the power handling capacity of the speaker. I often disconnect the sub and set the towers to full range (and even mono if available) in the amp. Then I try to memorize the notes I can hear in a piece of music with a good bass guitar line that I play over and over. Next, I turn on the sub only, and adjust the crossover point to reproduce that bottom note and below, but nothing above*. Finally, set the crossover frequency in the Pioneer to give you that same sound in the sub. That will keep those low frequencies out of the towers, significantly cleaning up and tightening their sound by letting them do what they do best and not asking for more.

*A word about the "nothing above" statement. "Nothing" is code for less than normal. We're looking for the crossover point, and we know we've found it when the note we want is there, and everything above that is attenuated or gone altogether. Having the sub reproduce the same program material as the towers is like having two cooks in the same kitchen.

I know this sounds complicated, but it isn't, and well worth the trouble. Too much HF in the sub or too much LF in the towers will really muddy up the system's overall performance. Why? Consider the cones trying to vibrate at two octaves at once. Can you sing two notes at once? Something's got to give. Now, consider several octaves from the same cone. Those speakers need all the help we can give them.

Also, there's the phasing by time between the sub's location and the towers. Sound moves slowly enough to be affected by speakers different distances away from you and each other. Yes, you can compensate for speaker to listener distances in the Pioneer, and you must do it accurately with a tape measure. Don't trust an auto setup program for this. The program can't see your room, so it can be confused by reflections off that bronze statue of James Brown.

Setting the speaker to listener distance accurately still doesn't compensate for the physical differences between the speakers. In an ideal world, all speakers are in the same horizontal plane, i.e. a straight line at the base of a triangle with you at the tip. Best way to get it right? Rearrange the furniture. Good luck with the wife.

Finally, don't over do it on the sub's volume. Most people do. A great sound system is one you aren't aware of. You want the sub and rears to just be audible with the Pioneer's tone controls set flat and the loudness switched off. That way, you can doctor the low end all you want, up or down, to suit the movies you spend too much time watching. The low end of movies is all over the place from one studio and director to another. There seems to be no hint of standardization.

As for my crack about spending too much time watching movies, I have a theory. If "Music sooths the savage beast", movies agitate him. Those Klipsch are way too fine to waste on Dirty Harry alone.

And don't believe that crap about "you can put the sub anywhere". In a corner of the same wall as the TV is my favorite. The corner closest to the TV is best. Behind the TV is next best. Beside the sofa, back of the room, etc. is out.

Regarding your concern over power, don't be. Those high efficiency Klipsch will run you out of the room now with the Pioneer at 25% power.

Get a DVD of The Eagles' Hell Freezes Over and listen to the bonus (audio only) track at the end. You will undoubtedly want to crank it. Then play it again, and stick your good ear in front of each speaker. You won't believe what you learn. Quality is all in your head.

[BluBitRates]

I highly recommend the upa-5. That is a good price on it too. The thing is built like a tank and weighs nearly as much as the xpa-5. The value could not be much better considering it has a transferrable warranty.

[cornfedksboy]

Looking back, I regret describing what I feel is missing by just saying I "expect a little more punch and boom from my system". That definitely does make it sound like I am only talking about the low end and the sub as someone mentioned. I also mean that clarity and sharpness in dialogue and music seems like it could be better/fuller. Does anybody think that me bi-amping the front towers may have made the center's sound (dialogue and vocals) less prominent? Just a thought, I dunno.

Cornfedksboy: I believe I have the speaker and sub placement correct, or very close as I really made sure I was doing it all properly in my initial setup. I'll take some pics of the room just to make sure though cuz maybe I'm missing something. You mention that my Pioneer should be giving plenty of power to my speakers but in your sig you have the Onkyo TX-NR708 which gives 110 wpc. Yet you also have 3 Marantz MA500 Monoblock amps right? Do you use those to power your front sound stage? Hopefully you don't take that the wrong way I'm just trying to understand since we have somewhat similar speakers.

For music I usually change the receiver's setting to F.S. Surround or just Stereo. What do you think is the best setting for music? You mentioned 5 channel mode to involve the center so do you use something like Pro LogicII Music or Standard Surround? For movies I almost always use my D-Link Boxee Box (via HDMI) so the setting I choose is Pure Direct and then depending on the movie file (.mkv's) it will switch it to DTS, DD, etc.

Thanks! You told me a lot there! I'll answer your question to me first. While our speakers are basically the same and we have the same rated output from our receivers, our receivers are NOT equivalent. When using a single unit to process and amplify, the amps are not quite "built to spec." Different companies use different measuring techniques and come up with the same number. My Onkyo, with all seven channels driven, only produces about 40 watts per channel. Your Pioneer produces about 80 watts per channel (per bench test data on similar Pioneer receivers). That is why I added the monoblocks to my front soundstage, and why you are considering adding an amp as well.

I would consider getting rid of the bi-amping as Klipsch are efficient speakers and that does little for them anyway. Also, when bi-amping from a receiver you are decreasing your watts per channel across the board. You might actually be making things worse.

Above you described missing some of the detail and voices. That is Midrange. Again, not a strength of the RF-82s. The bass should be tight and deep. The highs should be dynamic, and possibly slightly bright. The mids tend to be muddy, or without detail. That's really only in comparison with other high quality towers. Dollar for dollar, you'll be hard pressed to find a better speaker than the 82. Three things you can do here:

1. Try giving your towers a much more forward stance. Drastically reduce the toe-in to the point where it almost disappears. From there, play a reference recording where you believe you should be getting better sound. Move the speakers until you find the best possible mid. You also might want to pull them out from the wall a bit.

2. Use Pro-LogicII or other decoder. When you listen in F.S. surround, the same signal gets sent to each channel (I believe). Since you aren't using 5 towers, not the best idea. Stereo will send full sound to your towers and sub. This is where the 82s are thin in the bass. Pure Direct sounds really cool, but there is zero decoding and again, the 82s will loose some midrange. The Pr-LogicII music will send the mids to your RC-62 which can really sing the vocals. It should help to bring the whole soundstage togehter.

3. Calibrate your system. Make sure you are maxing out your eq and getting everything out of your system.

[cornfedksboy]

jimafm,

Some good information there. A couple of points I'd like to bring up in disagreement to:

Your recommendations on speaker wire is quite reasonable but it is highly variable based on type/size of speaker and what you are trying to do. I personally can't tell the difference between $10.00 wire and $100.00 wire on short runs. I've tried. In general, I wouldn't spend alot of money trying to fix a problem by blaming it on the speaker-wire.

I've not heard of any of your phase checks. Not that I doubt you, those are just new to me.

Your recommendation on sub placement HAS to be based on YOUR room. Sub placement is subjective to the room. There is no generic "best place," "second best place." It depends on your sub and the dynamics of the room it's in.

[Lpusedyou]

Jimafm: Thanks for your incredibly informative reply. Despite your odd stab at my time spent on movies (lol), I really appreciate you taking the time to suggest some things I should do with my system to help improve the sound as is. Perhaps, I will enjoy listening to music more once I grow older. I mean don't get me wrong I enjoy it now but not in the way some do where they can sit and do absolutely nothing else but listen to an entire CD. I can maybe do that for about 3 CDs that I can think of, lol. Anywho, I'll address a few of your points below.

All of my speaker wire is high (enough) quality 12 gauge speaker wire. None of it is the crap packaged with the Pioneer or from a local WorstBuy store.

I will definitely give the phasing test you described a shot when I get a chance.

I'm not sure the bi-amping of the towers can be screwed up much. I mean it's essentially just an extra cable going to each tower from the receiver and then going into the receiver's settings and telling it that the front are bi-amped. For example, on my Pioneer it has a setting where it asks about your speaker setup and one of the settings is 5.1 with Front Bi-amp. And when I run the automatic calibration tool (MCACC) it sounds correct when it runs through each speaker. Unless, like you mentioned, the Pioneer doesn't do a good job of bi-amping correctly.

I will definitely get a friend to help me test out the phase on my subwoofer and crossover point. This makes sense the way you described it and could definitely be contributing to the issue.

The speaker distances point was taken into account when I first setup my room and placed the speakers and other furniture. However, a couple things have changed here and there and things have been moved due to carpet cleaning so I will re-measure just to be positive that the distances and angles of the speakers are what they should be.

The sub's volume will be double checked but I believe it is at the correct level for what my ears like. Not too overbearing but not too weak either.

The sub is currently located in the corner of the same wall as the TV. Because of my room setup this is the only place it can be or the other corner of that same wall (that the TV is on). My only regret about that wall and the entertainment center I chose is that the sub is pretty close to the front left RF-82 tower for my liking.

As for the power - so you're saying that my concern over the amount and quality of power coming from the Pioneer is a non-issue? That's good to hear because that's exactly what started this thread - me wondering if it was good enough. So the RF-82s and RC-35 should be efficient enough to use the power currently provided in the best way to produce the best sound? Sweet!

Hmmm noted...I'll see if my dad has that as he is a huge Eagles fan.

[Lpusedyou]

BluBitRates: Thanks for your recommendation. I was honestly leaning towards that one as well but the craigslist ad still doesn't have any contact info unfortunately. I used the button to notify the lister that there isn't any contact info so perhaps he'll add it in the next few days.

[Quiet_Hollow]

Get a DVD of The Eagles' Hell Freezes Over and listen to the bonus (audio only) track at the end. You will undoubtedly want to crank it. Then play it again, and stick your good ear in front of each speaker.

Hee-hee-hee [][][]

[jimafm]

Lpusedyou

I agree with the majority. Power isn't your problem.

You have a good grip on the situation. I'm more of the $10 wire type, myself. While at Disney in FL, we tested every type of speaker wire that came along. Double blind elimination, odd man out. No difference until we got to sterling silver! Even then, some thought they could tell a difference, but none said it sounded any better. Even Walt couldn't afford miles of that.

Most of my listening is done while rebuilding tube audio gear. Keeps me from getting mad at the hack jobs I clean up.

Electronic crossovers can be a good thing, but beware. There's phase shift in them thar hills and valleys. Also, you need to set the crossover frequency to what Klipsch used for your speakers. Finally, you want to come at least close to the slope of the original crossover. Slope is the rate the signal declines as it is "crossed off". Most electronic crossovers chop the signal much faster than a passive. Klipsch didn't just pick a point and rate at random, and the box design and drivers had to be considered. Your amp doesn't know any of this, which makes it suspect.

There is room for improvement, mind you, but to see any benefit you need a bunch of test equipment. The main benefit of electronic crossovers is to eliminate the considerable power loss in a passive crossover. With your speakers' high efficiency (rated with the passive, by the way) and plenty of power, it becomes a non-issue. In high powered concert PAs, a single electronic replaces a passive in every speaker cabinet, saving a lot of amplifier power, weight and money. We also use electronic crossovers to greatly increase the fidelity and power handling capacity of the various speaker components. A five way system, for example, allows each driver to handle two or so octaves, which it can do with far more fidelity and efficiency. Chopping off the low frequencies allows as much as eight times the power handling capacity. I've gotten away with putting 1KW peak RMS into a 125W RMS rated JBL cone and 250W RMS into a 40W RMS rated JBL HF Driver. Cool, yes. Do you need it? No.

[jimafm]

While you are at it, you might help your loss of mid range by using the movie EQ setting, if your receiver has it. It increases the mid range. The idea is to make the dialog easier to understand. In your case, it might help the music playback, as well.

P.S. Drag your Dad over with his Eagles CD. It will blow his mind.

Quality is in your head. The Eagles prove it.