Emotiva XPA 2 vs Onkyo TX-SR706 for a 2.1 system!?!?!?!

[cornfedksboy]

Allagoric statements about what has been individually observed is still evidence and is an acceptable logical rebuttal.

Only if there is some semblance of controls in place. If I listen to a speaker through amp A at an average volume of 60dB and then through amp B at an average volume of 90dB and rave about amp B's greater bass, the test is worthless. As the Stereophile article I posted says: the levels have to be very closely matched in order to have a useful comparison: 0.2dB is enough to throw things off. To get close enough, you need a voltmeter.

I think there is something tangibly there, and it isn't occurring at 1 KHz so I think I have some merit here.

The 5V graphs into 4 and 8 ohms of THD+N I posted for each amplifier were at 10Hz through 50,000Hz, not just 1kHz.. The frequency response graphs show razor flat response from both the Onkyo and the Emotiva to beyond the audible range.

Logical arguments are "if/then" statements that don't require "controls." Scienctific arguments use "controls" in place of "if/then" statements. Both are acceptably "true" but are fundamentally different.

As to the bass response, I theorized that the Klipsch speakers were not nearly as efficient at lower frequencies as you assumed in your OP. If the bass response is less efficient you must increase your volts in order to produce the volume you listen at. If you increase your volts on the Onkyo, then the THD+N increases rather dramatically when compared to the Emotiva, decreasing their equality.

[Fish]

I know there are more than a few here that understand human interaction cannot be measured.I always get a kick but rarely understand why people try to justify their choices in audio with "science", the last thing that matters in evaluating if sound is great or just good..........As to THX, I don't think my 7's are, but they whoop up on some THX I've heard.

There is a place for numbers, the manual and sales desk.The rubber meets the road in your room.

[StephenM]

Both are acceptably "true" but are fundamentally different.

Both are true in a sense, but without controls, the allegorical statements are worthless from an objective standpoint. Objectivity is the only thing I'm aiming for. If people want to believe that the Emotiva blows the Onkyo away at lower volume levels, more power to them. I'd prefer to know why the Emotiva may outperform the Onkyo, if it actually does, objectively speaking.

If you increase your volts on the Onkyo, then the THD+N increases rather dramatically when compared to the Emotiva, decreasing their equality.

Actually if you look at the 20V line in 4 ohms for both (equates to 100W at 4 ohms), the Onkyo remains under 0.05% THD+N from 10-1,000Hz. The Emotiva flatlines at 0.05% THD+N at 20V.

[elitedemo]

Conversely, suppose you were enjoying a meal at a fine restaurant, and unbeknownst to you, the chef substituted dog meat for ribeye. If you don't notice the difference, does it matter? Suppose the chef doesn't like to wash his hands after he uses the bathroom. If you don't get sick, does it matter?

this is ultimately my favorite topic from this thread, dog meat for ribeye does it matter? if you dont notice the difference then no it doesnt, if your oblivious to the fact and if either substitute tasted the same

chef tinkles on his hands, then doesnt wash his hands and you dont get sick or dont notice, then no it doesnt matter, you werent aware and it had no real direct side affect

if you have no idea about what happened in either scenario then it ultimately doesnt matter because you werent knowingly affected and your body offered no response, the same can be said if your reading a spec sheet and want to stick with the avr instead of amp or vice versa and are oblivious to the fact of how an amp sounds compared to the avr, if your not going to notice and are happy eating dog meat or eating cook urine then why should it matter? if i tell you this cow steaks so much better than this dog meat and you dont beleive me and refuse to try then theres no reason to convince you otherwise

was there a change for me in 2 channel with amp vs receiver, definitely, were my receivers sufficient for 2 channel...mostly....would i have ever known the difference had i not bought the amp...nope

if your happy with a receiver at your volume level that is all that matters, as long as you are happy with it, most of us with amps werent happy and wanted a little more, but many can suffice with an avr, they are practical and semi efficient with what they do and dont sound half bad with any klipsch product

[Rich_Guy]

Also the difference in volume affecting testing is for direct A/B switch testing, not for comparing changes to equipment you've owned a while.

WOW, if I had only just turned my volume up one notch I would have noticed the differences in detail,,,,, I guess I didn't get any benefit from those amps after all! [:^)]

[cornfedksboy]

Both are acceptably "true" but are fundamentally different.

Both are true in a sense, but without controls, the allegorical statements are worthless from an objective standpoint. Objectivity is the only thing I'm aiming for. If people want to believe that the Emotiva blows the Onkyo away at lower volume levels, more power to them. I'd prefer to know why the Emotiva may outperform the Onkyo, if it actually does, objectively speaking.

If you increase your volts on the Onkyo, then the THD+N increases rather dramatically when compared to the Emotiva, decreasing their equality.

Actually if you look at the 20V line in 4 ohms for both (equates to 100W at 4 ohms), the Onkyo remains under 0.05% THD+N from 10-1,000Hz. The Emotiva flatlines at 0.05% THD+N at 20V.

So without any "objective reason" you've chosen to throw out an effectively "true" argument because it doesn't contain "objective evidence." You are thereby dismissing the possability that you could be incorrect which, to me, throws out any virtues that are obtained by using an objective argument. Just saying.

[cornfedksboy]

Both are acceptably "true" but are fundamentally different.

Both are true in a sense, but without controls, the allegorical statements are worthless from an objective standpoint. Objectivity is the only thing I'm aiming for. If people want to believe that the Emotiva blows the Onkyo away at lower volume levels, more power to them. I'd prefer to know why the Emotiva may outperform the Onkyo, if it actually does, objectively speaking.

If you increase your volts on the Onkyo, then the THD+N increases rather dramatically when compared to the Emotiva, decreasing their equality.

Actually if you look at the 20V line in 4 ohms for both (equates to 100W at 4 ohms), the Onkyo remains under 0.05% THD+N from 10-1,000Hz. The Emotiva flatlines at 0.05% THD+N at 20V.

What about the 8 ohms at 20 volts? Does that not come into play?

[StephenM]

You are thereby dismissing the possability that you could be incorrect which, to me, throws out any virtues that are obtained by using an objective argument. Just saying.

I'm not dismissing the possibility that I could be incorrect, but I've already provided reasonable explanations for why the allegorical statements are likely flawed (bias, non-level matched comparisons). Without those items addressed, there isn't much more to say.

[StephenM]

What about the 8 ohms at 20 volts? Does that not come into play?

For my listening volumes, unlikely. Still, at 20 volts at 8 ohms (50 watts), the peak distortion for both the XPA-2 and the SR706 occurs near 20kHz. Peak for the Emotiva is a bit over 0.2%. Peak for the Onkyo is 0.3%. Not really a lot to write home about, especially considering musical energy is relatively low at that point. Just to give some perspective, 0.5% THD means THD+N is 50dB down from the fundamental.

[Danzo]

Allagoric statements about what has been individually observed is still evidence and is an acceptable logical rebuttal.

Only if there is some semblance of controls in place. If I listen to a speaker through amp A at an average volume of 60dB and then through amp B at an average volume of 90dB and rave about amp B's greater bass, the test is worthless. As the Stereophile article I posted says: the levels have to be very closely matched in order to have a useful comparison: 0.2dB is enough to throw things off. To get close enough, you need a voltmeter.

I think there is something tangibly there, and it isn't occurring at 1 KHz so I think I have some merit here.

The 5V graphs into 4 and 8 ohms of THD+N I posted for each amplifier were at 10Hz through 50,000Hz, not just 1kHz.. The frequency response graphs show razor flat response from both the Onkyo and the Emotiva to beyond the audible range.

I do not rave about the amp, i've sold the bugger. And some of us do have gain controls..

Also, where does 95dB sensitivity of RF-5 at low frequencies come from? Please provide proof or this whole bickering is worthless

[StephenM]

Also the difference in volume affecting testing is for direct A/B switch testing, not for comparing changes to equipment you've owned a while.

So you're saying you didn't even compare them back to back? Not much more to say... Enjoy your amps.

[cornfedksboy]

You are thereby dismissing the possability that you could be incorrect which, to me, throws out any virtues that are obtained by using an objective argument. Just saying.

I'm not dismissing the possibility that I could be incorrect, but I've already provided reasonable explanations for why the allegorical statements are likely flawed (bias, non-level matched comparisons). Without those items addressed, there isn't much more to say.

You did dismiss it as there was "no objectivity." Additionally, further burden of proof, i.e. the sensitivity of the speakers at lower frequency, is on you as you proposed the original hypothesis. I am questioning the accuracy of your original assumption which is key to your argument. That said, I don't want you to think that you have not presented a "good" argument. It's just that if you are to convince me that I am wrong in my subjective evaluation, I require additional evidence.

[StephenM]

Also, where does 95dB sensitivity of RF-5 at low frequencies come from? Please provide proof or this whole bickering is worthless

Nowhere; Klipsch only specifies sensitivity of 99dB with a 2.83 volt input, which you can verify on the product page. Presuming that the speaker is reasonably balanced, yet accounting for some rolloff, I went with a sensitivity of 95dB with a 2.83 volt input (1 watt at 8 ohms, 2 watts at 4 ohms). I also discounted boundary gain which would help boost the sensitivity of lower frequencies. If anything 95dB is a reasonably conservative figure.

[cornfedksboy]

Also, where does 95dB sensitivity of RF-5 at low frequencies come from? Please provide proof or this whole bickering is worthless

Nowhere; Klipsch only specifies sensitivity of 99dB with a 2.83 volt input, which you can verify on the product page. Presuming that the speaker is reasonably balanced, yet accounting for some rolloff, I went with a sensitivity of 95dB with a 2.83 volt input (1 watt at 8 ohms, 2 watts at 4 ohms). I also discounted boundary gain which would help boost the sensitivity of lower frequencies. If anything 95dB is a reasonably conservative figure.

Why don't you measure it? That would be good objective evidence to support your claim.

[cornfedksboy]

What about the 8 ohms at 20 volts? Does that not come into play?

For my listening volumes, unlikely. Still, at 20 volts at 8 ohms (50 watts), the peak distortion for both the XPA-2 and the SR706 occurs near 20kHz. Peak for the Emotiva is a bit over 0.2%. Peak for the Onkyo is 0.3%. Not really a lot to write home about, especially considering musical energy is relatively low at that point. Just to give some perspective, 0.5% THD means THD+N is 50dB down from the fundamental.

Have you considered using the ITU-R 468 measurement rather than THD + N? It supposedly adds additional levels of objectivity over the audible range and better replicates what the human ear actually hears.

[StephenM]

Why don't you measure it? That would be good objective evidence to support your claim.

Don't have the equipment to do so I'm afraid. Doesn't make much difference in the end: as the 4 ohm, 20V plot shows, the Onkyo can put out an extremely clean (less than 0.05% THD+N) 100 watts from 10Hz all the way to 1kHz. Even if the RF-5 was only 88dB sensitive with 2.83 volts at bass frequencies, and 4 ohms along the line, (meaning 85dB sensitive for 1 watt), SPL at the listening position would still be in excess of 95dB.

[cornfedksboy]

Why don't you measure it? That would be good objective evidence to support your claim.

Don't have the equipment to do so I'm afraid. Doesn't make much difference in the end: as the 4 ohm, 20V plot shows, the Onkyo can put out an extremely clean (less than 0.05% THD+N) 100 watts from 10Hz all the way to 1kHz. Even if the RF-5 was only 88dB sensitive with 2.83 volts at bass frequencies, and 4 ohms along the line, (meaning 85dB sensitive for 1 watt), SPL at the listening position would still be in excess of 95dB.

Only if all of your assumptions are true. I require objective evidence here. []

[StephenM]

Only if all of your assumptions are true. I require objective evidence here.

I guess I'll just have to live with that niggling doubt that my beloved RF-5s may be less than 88dB sensitive with 2.83V in the 50Hz-20kHz band [] Why 50Hz? Because I use a sub!

[Rich_Guy]

Also the difference in volume affecting testing is for direct A/B switch testing, not for comparing changes to equipment you've owned a while.

So you're saying you didn't even compare them back to back? Not much more to say... Enjoy your amps.

I do enjoy them, they are an extreme improvement to what I was using before. Not much more to say.

If the difference was minute maybe I would need to A/B them several times to see if there was a difference, but there was no need big difference, big improvement.

If you modified your car and it went from running a 1/4 mile ET of 13.9 seconds to running an ET of 11.9 seconds I guarantee you would not need to either see the spec's, a time clock or do an A/B test to know immediately which was faster, you would know there was a difference before the quarter mile was anywhere near finished. Same thing with the amp improvement, it was just immediately obvious.

[Danzo]

I actually think that 95dB is quite good/safe estimation; however, there might be something to sensitivity of those woofers in, say, 50Hz -100Hz or so range.

Horn loaded mid and high ranges must increase average speaker sensitivity quite drastically..

It's all emphyrical of course,because my google skills failed to produce Klipsch Reference speaker sensitivy graph at different frequencies -.-