Why vinyl?

[StephenM]

I've heard that as an excuse. Makes no sense to me.

That a tape "can" last many years is no guarantee that it actually will last many years. Many IT admins have learned that one the hard way.

[RRFL]

From having Asthma fluro lights on trains were very "Alfred Hitchcock" and I knew my hearing went out to 22Khz when the science teacher tested our hearing at school.

\

Ah, another one. I've known a few of us. I discovered the same thing when I stepped under an "ultrasonic" burgler alarm in an Indianapolis museum when I was stationed at old Fort Ben. Felt like someone had just shoved an icepick in both ears at the same time and I lunged forward and down...scaring the hell out of everyone else and getting the attention of the guard. I told him what happened and he smiled and gestured to the transducer in the cieling. He said about one out of a thousand had that response and explained it was a "new" alarm system. They never turned off the transducer since no one should be able to hear it...they just disconnected the alarm during the day.

It happened a few more times at banks and such, but, of course, by the time I was in my thirties I could no longer hear it. Another thing it explained is why I thought the "silent" dog whistle I purchased when I was 12 or so was defective or a sham...because I could clearly hear it!

Enjoy while you can, and it is my belief that even when age takes it away there is an "imprint" that remains. I probably don't have much past 13k anymore but I still clearly hear nuances I believe I "learned" when I heard into the ultrasonics.

I have recorded and produced CD's that others have pronounced "good as vinyl" so I believe there is nothing inherently wrong in that format that approaching it correctly cannot fix. I also discovered 1 bit as soon as it became available to "average" means and believe my Korg is quite capable of recording it ALL. Sort of like having an Ampex studio mastering recording record in one's pocket without the tape noise floor.

When it comes to surface noise, you can hardly beat a well worn 78. My well worn copy of "Rhapsody in Blue" with Gershwin at the piano and the Paul Whiteman band remains one of the most thrilling and real experiences I've ever heard even though the signal to noise ratio is probably 50/50 at best.

Clean it up? Heck, no. You cannot get better than perfection.

Dave

It's good and bad, what a dilemma, I had to go to hospital once as the emergency cotton wool got stuck in my ear, I so totally freaked out.

I agree "imprint" "learned" mine is now 16K according to the "Mosquito Sound" app on my phone, lol.

[JBryan]

While degradation may occur with previous materials, vinyl's elasticity allows the grooves to reform to their original shape as the record cools. I would imagine that if you were to play a record continuously, the grooves may actually melt and then you'd have a problem - most easily heard by the complete lack of the high frequencies, assuming the stylus would even track in the groove. I read that, back in the '80's an audio mag tested and then played a record over 100 times in quick succession, then re-tested. There was no discernible differences in such things as frequency response or surface noise.

A properly set up and operating TT, arm and cart will not harm a modern record. Dirt, oils and mold on the other hand, can do some damage and will eventually degrade the record's condition. Playing a dirty record - even slightly dusty will essentially turn your stylus into sandpaper as it will drag those bits of dirt, etc. through the grooves and wear them down - especially the smaller, finer notches that create higher frequencies. Also, as the grooves are heated, the dirt, oils and mold can become embedded and those will not be released through most cleaning methods (steam cleaning may do the trick). This is why many folks clean even their new LPs before playing them. I usually don't unless the record is visibly dirty or dusty simply because any degradation of a clean record is extremely slight and I'm too lazy and impatient to bother with such minutiae.

[kaiser SET say]

I concur completely JB[]

[Mallette]

It's good and bad, what a dilemma, I had to go to hospital once as the emergency cotton wool got stuck in my ear, I so totally freaked out.

I agree "imprint" "learned" mine is now 16K according to the "Mosquito Sound" app on my phone, lol.

BTW, I failed to mention that I found out that many of these ultrasonic alarms were 140db. Hardly surprising that it was quite painful...

Dave

[Mallette]

(steam cleaning may do the trick)

Is it Mapleshade that sells these steam cleaners? I've never heard anyone mention them here and recall I saw one in the not too distant past somewhere and it struck me as quite logical and the price not too dear. .

Do you use one, and if so, willing to share your thoughts?

Dave

[RRFL]

From having Asthma fluro lights on trains were very "Alfred Hitchcock" and I knew my hearing went out to 22Khz when the science teacher tested our hearing at school. So when CD's were released. I was very disappointed with the sound and the cause was eventually admitted and acknowledged by the manufactures.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't vinyl lose it's high end advantage after a handful of plays, negating its advantage for those with exceptional high frequency hearing?

It totally depends on the turntable arm stylus combination. For example the Garrott Bros P77 was developed to track at 2 grams double the elliptic by cutting the stylus differently, I won't go into that now, but I can visualise the pictures of the stress patterns in the blurb, I need a USB port in my head, but the Garrott Bros Blurb at that time before they both committed suicide pointed out the elliptic stylus tracking at 1 gram applied 30,000lbs force at the contact tip with the record and bent the grove walls so if you played it again within 24hours it tended towards being a chisel. The P77 was a massive improvement on this and also tracked in a different spot to the elliptic so it was like having a new record. It is essential that the angle of the stylus tip match the angle of the lathe cutting tool or it's emmm a bit like round pegs in square holes. The heavier tracking force of the P77 mean't it reduced the miss-tracking "jumping and slamming back into the groove like a jack hammer" and wow. I played Dark side of the Moon at my sisters party and the party stopped and everyone just listened remarking that they have never heard all that stuff on the record before, my LaScala did also lend themselves to the experience. If you don't get the turn table set-up just right then it's a very average result. I actually carry a Technics SL1200 alignment protractor in my bag so I can un-stuff-up what the young DJ's do. They don't care if it does not jump and sometimes I wonder why we bothered to install the A&H V6 which has a valve in each channel and cost $21k.

When CD's came out I was "over the moon" that record wear and miss-tracking were a thing of the past and then I was disappointed.

[Marvel]

Richard is the organist at the Latin Mass church we attended in Atlanta. Unfortunately they only have an electric organ, his playing was outstanding though.

Hmm...Pardon my memory. I am pretty sure you told me this a few years ago.

Nonetheless, well worth hearing again. Good thing he was Virgil's pupil. If he'd have been one of E. Power's he wouldn't have touched the electric!

Dave

that would have been me... Same church.

Richard Morris is also a bit of a pragmatist. Coming over to our church meant he was home, instead of playing for the huge Episcopal church. [] I miss hearing him every week, but it's 95 miles one way to get there.

Bruce

[StephenM]

It totally depends on the turntable arm stylus combination.

Referencing JBryan's recent post

Playing a dirty record - even slightly dusty will essentially turn your
stylus into sandpaper as it will drag those bits of dirt, etc. through
the grooves and wear them down - especially the smaller, finer notches
that create higher frequencies.

It apparently also depends on how anal retentive you are in cleaning your LPs, and probably to some extent, how clean the room itself happens to be.

my LaScala did also lend themselves to the experience

This is interesting, since the old La Scala was specified to be -5dB at 17kHz, and judging by the FR graph I've seen, output is rapidly decreasing beyond that point.

[StephenM]

Then you need to ask rodrocket. All I can say is "I don't care about what I can't hear..."

Dave

With all due respect, I did.

[RRFL]

From having Asthma fluro lights on trains were very "Alfred Hitchcock" and I knew my hearing went out to 22Khz when the science teacher tested our hearing at school. So when CD's were released. I was very disappointed with the sound and the cause was eventually admitted and acknowledged by the manufactures.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't vinyl lose it's high end advantage after a handful of plays, negating its advantage for those with exceptional high frequency hearing?

Yes, I will correct you. No, they don't show significant audible degradation until many, many playes if played with ANYTHING like a decent arm and cartridge reasonably correctly. And I don't mean arm and a leg audiophile.

I've a copy of the Mercury Living Presence "1812" overture I rec'd for Christmas, 1965 from my mother that still sounds "good." It was played for the first few years with a "flipver" ceramic cart on an RCA console stereo.

My "Dark Side" album is first year of release and the worst thing it's ever seen was a Stanton GyroPoise (681EEE unitized) and a seed burn crater. It still sounds better than the "audiophile" CD release.

And I am NOT a vinyl snob...but I know what I hear.

Dave

I watched the Stanton 681EEE play the just cut Lacquer at Festival records Sydney so the cutting engineer could choose to pass it on to the next process or re-cut it. Somewhere, "in a safe place", lol I have a lacquer, that got re-cut, I won't carelessly call it vinyl[]

Amazing to watch[8-|]

[RRFL]

No, they don't show significant audible degradation until many, many playes if played with ANYTHING like a decent arm and cartridge reasonably correctly.

I'm not talking about significant audible degradation; I'm talking about LP's potential frequency extension out well past the (generally accepted) audible range (say to 50kHz or so) being lost after a handful of plays.

Back in 1975 when I was 19 years old and worked in the HiFi shop and first experienced the Klipschorn and this totally transformed my life,"total addict" "Klipsch Fan Boy" we had "Discrete 4 channel" The rear 2 channels were recorded on the record in the frequency band between 20khz and 40khz. It did actually work but did not get the big push that CD's got so it disappeared. We also had 8 track cartridge players, so clunky.

The Klipschorns in decorators finish and the JBL Century L100's were the only 2 speakers in the shop that could play the JBL test record properly. Every other speaker doubled 40Hz to 80Hz so you heard no difference in the frequency. That was freaky! The Klipschorns just wiped the floor and cleaned the neighbourhood with everything else at that time. Remarkable and YES now I have JUBS, still in the boxes though, can't wait.

[RRFL]

While degradation may occur with previous materials, vinyl's elasticity allows the grooves to reform to their original shape as the record cools. I would imagine that if you were to play a record continuously, the grooves may actually melt and then you'd have a problem - most easily heard by the complete lack of the high frequencies, assuming the stylus would even track in the groove. I read that, back in the '80's an audio mag tested and then played a record over 100 times in quick succession, then re-tested. There was no discernible differences in such things as frequency response or surface noise.

A properly set up and operating TT, arm and cart will not harm a modern record. Dirt, oils and mold on the other hand, can do some damage and will eventually degrade the record's condition. Playing a dirty record - even slightly dusty will essentially turn your stylus into sandpaper as it will drag those bits of dirt, etc. through the grooves and wear them down - especially the smaller, finer notches that create higher frequencies. Also, as the grooves are heated, the dirt, oils and mold can become embedded and those will not be released through most cleaning methods (steam cleaning may do the trick). This is why many folks clean even their new LPs before playing them. I usually don't unless the record is visibly dirty or dusty simply because any degradation of a clean record is extremely slight and I'm too lazy and impatient to bother with such minutiae.

I concur also "deja vu" I was going to say that and then emmm what was that about minds.[]

I really like your speaker and I had this picture on my net book desk top for ages and people would ask if it was my system, I did not dribble much at all but what a beautiful space.

[RRFL]

(steam cleaning may do the trick)

Is it Mapleshade that sells these steam cleaners? I've never heard anyone mention them here and recall I saw one in the not too distant past somewhere and it struck me as quite logical and the price not too dear. .

Do you use one, and if so, willing to share your thoughts?

Dave

What [] for my ears ahhhhhhhhhh, haha.

Be careful with this as I recall a "mention" many moons ago that there was a film residue left on the record after the stamping process and the concern was that this "potential lubricant" could be removed by steam cleaning and actually be detrimental.

[RRFL]

It's good and bad, what a dilemma, I had to go to hospital once as the emergency cotton wool got stuck in my ear, I so totally freaked out.

I agree "imprint" "learned" mine is now 16K according to the "Mosquito Sound" app on my phone, lol.

BTW, I failed to mention that I found out that many of these ultrasonic alarms were 140db. Hardly surprising that it was quite painful...

Dave

I have not so fond memories of "wet" toilet paper, tissues, you name it, stuck in my ears, but the Fluro lights where there to follow me around everywhere and taunt me like in one of those crazy horror movies where they all go mad.[:|]

[RRFL]

It totally depends on the turntable arm stylus combination.

Referencing JBryan's recent post

Playing a dirty record - even slightly dusty will essentially turn your

stylus into sandpaper as it will drag those bits of dirt, etc. through

the grooves and wear them down - especially the smaller, finer notches

that create higher frequencies.

It apparently also depends on how anal retentive you are in cleaning your LPs, and probably to some extent, how clean the room itself happens to be.

my LaScala did also lend themselves to the experience

This is interesting, since the old La Scala was specified to be -5dB at 17kHz, and judging by the FR graph I've seen, output is rapidly decreasing beyond that point.

The LaScala just sound awesome and that's just how it is. Back then I would go to HiFi shows and everyone wanted to talk to me.

Of course the live jazz band playing without amplification in the Street Fair would absolutely trap me. Like outside with trees and breeze in sunshine.[ip]

[Don Richard]

I've no idea how "masters" can deteriorate unless they were stored with magnets or near a nuclear test site.

Mag tape deteriorates in playback quality from the time it is recorded until the tape delaminates. At some point the degradation curve starts to flatten, but the initial loss is fairly rapid. There was an article in Mix magazine in the late 80s or early 90s by the late Steven St Croix showing how a tape could be recorded and sound different in as little as a week later. Not huge differences, but detectable nonetheless. Many studios began archiving their master tapes to digital storage media in order to combat this.

I noticed when making tapes of records back in the 70s that when monitoring during recording the tape was nearly identical to the source, but when played later some of the highs were missing. I wondered what was going on and spent lots of time demagging everything on my recorder but the losses still occurred. It seems it was the characteristics of the tape itself causing the losses.

[JBryan]

(steam cleaning may do the trick)

Is it Mapleshade that sells these steam cleaners? I've never heard anyone mention them here and recall I saw one in the not too distant past somewhere and it struck me as quite logical and the price not too dear. .

Do you use one, and if so, willing to share your thoughts?

Dave

Yes. I believe you can get a steam wand cleaner from M'shade but for @ $20, you can go down to your nearest Walmart, CVS, Walgreens, etc. and buy a perfectly good one (if not the same one).

Myself and several others on this Forum have used steam to clean records and its fairly intuitive and an easy learning curve. The results range from outstanding to hardly noticeable but that's true with most any record cleaning method I've come across and most of the time, steaming is quite effective at reducing surface noise. Of course, I reserve steaming for exceptionally dirty records and I don't often bring many home and I always use it in addition to my regular cleaning procedure. I'm also looking into enzyme cleaners but want to find an inexpensive substitute for the audiophile concoctions being offered. If anyone has an idea, please feel free to post it.

[Mallette]

Mag tape deteriorates in playback quality from the time it is recorded until the tape delaminates.

Everything does. I am just saying you can't hear it, at least I can't. They sound just fine...and my hearing isn't THAT far gone. In fact, I was stunned when I bought a cassette deck to transfer some family tapes and found a Dolby C metal tape casssette I'd made in the 80's. Silent, and more like SACD or DBX R2R than CD.

The R2Rs I digitized from the70's in 1 bit or 24/88.2 sound audibly superior to all but a few CDs. That's the facts.

Dave

[Mallette]

Describe the technique for steam cleaning. My wife has a large hose steamer for clothes. It's very potent and I'd have to be careful not to warp them, but it has a wand wide enough to cover label to edge.

Do you simply dry with a lint free cloth as per wet cleaning, use a discwasher or other brush, or what?

Dave