My Klipschorns are Home!!!!!!

[Klipschorn Cretin]

Well after a hellified journey my klipschorns are where they belong. These are alot prettier than expected. I was told that they were made in '84, but I swear they look newer. The guy I bought them from was a little peculiar. He told me on the phone the reason he was selling these. He said his 60's era La Scalas are a better match for his MacIntosh tube amps, but when I got there he had sold his tube amps and was running these with a small NAD amp and what looked like a build your own preamp from Radio Shack. Needless to say it sounded like crap. I think that's the real reason he was selling these. Why else would you take La Scalas over K-horns (he also had a nice pair of Cornwalls). He said that Klipschorns are power hungry!! I was always told the opposite. I wonder why someone who had to be into Klipsch say that.

Anyway, I didn't drive 550 miles to turn around empty handed. So i bought them although they sounded like crap, but they looked great. I hooked them up at home and they just came to life the highs and mids are great, but the lows just don't seem to be what I remember them to be. I heard these years ago at the local Klipsch retailer and the bass was so intense it felt like someone beating my chest. Do you think the woofers are "loose"? Also, the crossovers are type AK-2; should I try the Type AA's I have? I emailed Klipsch with the serial # asking when these were made; will they tell me? Does anyone know how to decipher serial #'s? Regards to all, John B

[ShapeShifter]

John,

Congratulation on your K-Horns and safe return.

There's a downloadable file in the thread below that has the Klipsch Serial # Date Manufacturer info. The file is in the last posted message at the bottom of the page. btw - If you have difficulty, post them and we'll assist in decoding. There are others you can advise you as to remeding bass reproduction issues.

Wes

http://216.37.9.58/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002074.html

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KLIPSCH IS MUSICf>

My Systems f>s>c>

This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 05-13-2002 at 12:11 AM

[John Warren]

if the woofers are K33Es and are not damaged and the units are pushed properly into the corners the horns should produce decent LF. if not, look at the bottoms of each unit and examine for water damage (which you also did before you bought them, right?). inspect the outside and inside joints for openings. remove the woofer access door and inspect all seams, wire connects. is the woofer door on tightly or is the mtg holes stripped as usual? buying and old Klipschorn is like buying a house, you have to know what to look for

before you buy it.

[Klipschorn Cretin]

Thanks Shapeshifter for the info. Apparently they are 84's. They're in great shape though. I did inspect them quite thoroughly and there is no sign of water damage and/ or anyone tampering with them what soever. The bass shortage could be a placement issue. What is the recomended distance from the wall on each side? I have a Big screen TV and a large entertainment center so the Khorns are a tight squeeze. I only have about an inch on either side of them. I'm thinking if he thought they were power hungry and he actually had MacIntosh tube amps he might've slammed the hell out of the woofers. I'm going to swap'em and see if that improves anything.

[HDBRbuilder]

K-horns go TIGHT into the corners of a room...no less than that...you may have to add some filler along the tailpiece to "seal it" to the corner all the way down. Without a tight fit to the corner, the walls and floor cannot be properly utilized as an extension of the horn..and that is the purpose of the design. The problem may not be with the woofers at all...one thing about k-horns, they tend to show you where a weak link in the rest of your system is.

MacIntosh TUBE amps will NOT cause any trouble with the woofers...they simply DON'T have enough power to do that...the K-horn can handle up to 105 watts RMS continuous rating into 8 ohms..and the MACs just don't get that far!

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If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted.

This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 05-13-2002 at 09:00 AM

[Klipschorn Cretin]

OK, I pushed them into the corners real snug; still not getting the bass response from them like I remember. Maybe I have this exaggerated bass in my mind on how i think they should sound. It's been 13 years since i heard a pair. Unfortunately, there isn't a local retailer that carries Klipschorns so I could hear them and compare. Are they supposed to "pound" like i think they should. HDBR what do you suggest I use to "seal" them to the walls; foam perhaps. The bass isn't a huge issue, because I have an 18" JBL Proaudio downfiring with 600W RMS being pumped to it that fills really good. But, I'd like the K-horns to perform to their optimum. I've enclosed pics to show you how close they are. Do you think that they're too close or the room might be too small? The pics were taken approx. 7 ft from the back of the room.

Wow they do sound extra snappy, though. The Mids and highs are right where they should be. The more I listen the more i like 'em.

[Gregorius]

Would having them so close to the entertainment center have something to do with the lack of bass? It seems like it would cut down on the wall surface used (ie Horn)

Greg

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HK AVR20 II

Toshiba DVD

32" Toshiba TV

Odyssey Stratos

1976 LaScala's Front L&R

KV-1 Center

KG 1.5 Rear L&R

KSW-12 Sub

[Jobman]

K-Cretin:

You have the same issues I do with my K-horns. I have them against the walls, but also very close (with 1" to spare) to my entertainment center.

I know being so close to the EC is hurting the bass, as it needs more room to fully take advantage of the way the K-horn was designed, but it is all I can do for now. Mine also is reflecting some of the upper range signals, as my EC appears to be deeper than yours, and the K-horn partially fires into the side of the EC more than yours.

Unfortunately, I have to live with it this way. Not perfect. I tried going to Belles, but I missed the overall range, and even the limited bass I have with the K-horns is better than the Belles. Someday, I will have the right room setup, and then I will already have the perfect speaker!

Mike

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1977 K-Horns

Wright Sound 2A3 Monoblocks

AMC CVT 1030 PreAmp

Jolida 602A CD

Thorens TD-165

Silverline Speaker Cables

Various Monster Interconnects.

[Chris Robinson]

Looking at your setup (which looks nice, BTW), I'd say that the inner two sides of the Khorns closest to the video unit are being totally blocked. I would guess then that your bass is 1/2 gone, so to speak.

The other thing is that Khorns need a pretty big room to really sing (16' or greater long wall is recommended). I have them in opposing corners in my living room (about 22' long) and they really light up the room.

Is there anyway that you could shift your system to be along the long wall? Know it's probably not feasible but I thought I'd check.

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"Bullsh*t!"

-PWK-

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TWO-CHANNEL SYSTEM

Eico HF-81

Eico HFT-90

AES AE-25 "Superamp" (in temporary retirement)

AES AE-3 Pre-amp (in temporary retirement)

New Tube 4000 CD Player

1976 Klipschorns (KCBR's & ALK'ed)

HOME THEATER

Klipsch 1968 ALK Cornwall "II"s (LF/RF)

ALK Belle Klipsch (Center)

Klipsch Heresy (RR/LR)

Klipsch KSW-12 sub

Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Cornwalls)

Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Heresy's)

Denon AVR-4800

Toshiba SD-3109 DVD

[HDBRbuilder]

Klipschorn Cretin,

Your entertainment center is reflecting the lower bass soundwaves back to the k-horns...and they are not getting the wall extension they need due to the window behind the entertainment center. Just way too tight of quarters for those big boys to do what they are designed to do.

Do you live in a manufactured home?..from the looks of the walls it appears so. If so, the walls in manufactured homes and mobile homes are pretty much the same thing...and the bass horn will not perform as well with those kinds of walls and subfloor strata.

As for a seal to the corner of the tailpiece, don't use foam...it absorbs too much..use a harder but still flexible rubber seal...(thickness you would find in a tractor tire innertube)...something like that...it just has to make contact well with the edge of the tailpiece to the walls.

Right now though, your main problem is finding a place for those k-horns where they have enough wall surface extending past them and the sound is not being blocked by something.

Actually, for the placement of where your k-horns currently are, you would have been better off with Cornwalls.

Another thing...you mentioned you are pushing that sub with 600 watts...PLEASE DON'T TELL ME YOU ARE DOING THAT TO THE K-HORNS TOO...DO NOT EXCEED 105 WATTS WITH THEM!!!! If you ARE overdriving the k-horns, then that is part of your problem with lack of bass!! I would advise not putting more than 90 watts RMS into them!!! Remember, they are accurate and efficient...overpowering them will blow the tweeters..and likely the woofers...maybe even the midrange drivers too, although the midrange drivers are very tough!

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If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted.

This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 05-13-2002 at 02:42 PM

[edwardre]

Hey HDBR......what is your take on the best 'strata' for placing a Khorn? My HT room happens to be the only slab foundation room in the house. It is carpeted. Would a traditional wood foundation, carpeted, be better for 'feeling' the bass, or should the solid concrete slab be best? Or does it not make a hill of beans of diff?

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Ed

[Klipschorn Cretin]

Thanks guys for all your input. To answer some questions; no it's not a manuf. home, but a frame house built in the 60's on a crawl space. The room that the entertainment center is in was an addition, also on a crawl. They did use a dropped ceiling (acoustical tile)and paneling on the walls. The ceiling is only dropped 6" with unfinished drywall above that. Makes it easy to run the wires for the rears hanging from the ceiling though. Unfortunately, this is the only wall that I can do this with. The other 3 have doors in the middle of them. Do you think pulling the paneling and drywalling would help? Was going to do that anyway. Should I get rid of the EC or would the window be the next factor? The window is up pretty high, probably 6" higher than the top of the K-horns. I think I'll pull the EC forward a few feet and see, I mean hear if that improves bass response. I know these don't require alot of power, but I'm running another GFA-555 to them. In stereo the wattage isn't that great. I just don't crank it. Just a nice listening level. (for the whole neighborhood, hehe) Maybe I should hook them up directly to my HK receiver, it's 100W RMS. I have alot of playing around to do with these. Has anyone built a center ch. out of a k77, k55V, and type AA crossover. It would be huge, but would it make for a level sound across the fronts?

Thanks again guys for all your help.

Regards, John B.

[Q-Man]

I would get rid of the two side pieces of the entertainment center. You need at least four feet out of each corner, of unrestricted wall space.

Q.

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Q-Man

[arfz28]

How and wear on the back of the k-horn do you put this rubber stripping. Do you glue it on the back of the speaker or maby silicon it on. What about the top of the k-horn where the mid and tweeter is, do you seal that to. I have my k-horn in a basement finished out in panaling, with about 1 inch of styrafome behind the panaling for insulation, and of corse behind the styrafome is concrete. I think the panaling may not be as straight and true as dry wall, and may not be sealling my k-horns to the wall as good as they should be. Wear can I get this stripping and exactly wear do I put it? My k-horns are also 84 models. thanks

[HDBRbuilder]

Edwardre,

There really isn't any "rule of thumb" for whether the wooden floor or the concrete slab is best...especially when they are carpeted. It boils down to which sounds best to you. It is better for the walls and floor to be relatively solid in the areas where they become an extension of the bass folded horn (4' radius out from the corner the k-horn is in).

I have found, for example, that in most cases, the k-horn woofer performs admirably when a concrete slab floor has good tightly installed wood flooring over it for the first 4' out of the corners where the k-horns are, and if the walls are solidly drywalled, then something in the manner of a beaded birch paneling is SECURELY applied over the drywall in those areas for at least the same 4' out of the k-horn's corners.

Of course this is also dependent upon other factors such as the underlying insulation of a floor and wall, and the degree of "stiffness" in the substrata of the walls (framing).

To my ears, when the extension surfaces of the floor and walls are wood, just as the rest of the main body of the k-horn woofer is, it sounds "right" to me..."warmer", but yet clear bass. I hope this makes sense to you...kinda hard to explain.

Klipschorn Cretin,

If the paneling is applied directly to the wall studs, it will not carry the bass from the corners nearly as well as will if it is applied SECURELY over a substrate such as drywall (using adhesives AND paneling nails).

As for your placement problem, if the window is above the level of the top of the woofer section of the k-horn, it is not that much of a big deal. I would suggest that the tower sections on either side of the center section of your entertainment center be moved to another wall, leaving only the center section with the tv and such(if possible)...that will give you more of the space the woofers need to perform at their best (as Q-man has already suggested).

Another point on placement: The k-horns are very close together...this makes the sweet spot very far forward in that room. You COULD build up some "false corners" to sit the k-horns in, and therefore angle them more outwards from each other to adjust the "sweet spot" farther out into the room from that wall. This will also negate the immediate need to lessen the dimensional width of the entertainment center...false corners are a relatively "cheap" fix to your problem. Klipsch has literature describing the dimensions of the "false corners" for k-horns and tips on how to build them (at least they USED TO have it).

As for a center channel speaker....just pick up a good single Heresy on eBay...they show up on occassion. Will be cheaper than buying the parts to do what you wrote of.

Arfz28,

The best stuff I have seen is flexible rubber that starts out flat and then at one edge rolls over upon itself to create a tube...the flat being glued and stapled to the back side of the left and right vertical edges of the tailpiece of ONLY the woofer section TAILPIECE...with the "tube" end of the rubber squashed against the wall.

As for the paneling...it is better to have a drywall substrate under the paneling to provide more density and flatness to the surface where the woofer section uses the walls as an extension of the woofer. Keeping in mind that UNDER the drywall there needs to be good insulation. Keep in mind the material the woofer section uses in its folded horn sides...the wall's surface material needs to be at least that stiff and dense in order to best continue the extension of the horn...ie., paneling glued and nailed to the drywall, if paneling is used.

I hope this answered your questions, guys.

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If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted.

[edwardre]

Thanks HDBR...much has been stated about the requirement of 4 ft clear extending out from the corner of both walls and floor for correct/best Khorn bass response. Actually, I think I read somewhere that it is 40" minimum. Anyway, I recall seeing PWK's "false wall" as depicted on this BB several times and it appeared to be less than that by a considerable margin. So....what's the deal? Why would Numero Uno make 'falsies' that were not up to spec? Is is the 40"/48" reading from the CORNER or from the 'end' of the speaker extending 40"/48" outwards?

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Ed

[HDBRbuilder]

40" is the NOMINAL minimum from the corner...easier to say 4'...besides the sheets of plywood are 4'wide...most people can easier visualize 4' than 40". I am sure that PWK based his false corners NOT on NOMINAL data, but on data derived from his ACTUAL pair of k-horns' needs...since he had the anechoic chamber and such available to him in order to get an EXACT determination for his particular pair of k-horns

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If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted.

This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 05-14-2002 at 01:18 PM

[soundog]

First get the equiptment cabnet out of there. Too bad it looks nice but the Khorns need a clear 40" - 48" on each side. You may have to move the sofa back and put the sub somewhere else. If you don't have at least 40" on the TV side, let me know and I have an idea that works for me. Also the window should be higher than the bottom part of the Khorn. If its not I have an idea for that also.

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Soundog's HT Systems

[Chris Robinson]

Guys, here's the "false corner" sheet from Klipsch.

[Steve Phillips]

John B, click on the little house below(between PM & search) to see what I did with my Klipschorns.

You don't seem to have the room I had, but it's an idea.

Before the false wall were built the K-Horns were against the side walls but out even with my equipment cabinets.The bass was there.It was just firing into the open space along the back wall.I was suprised at the amount of bass that was there.

They were much better tight into the "new"corners.

They were powered by a Denon POA-2800 200X2 amp with great success.

By the way,the seller interested in parting with his Cornwalls?Not that I need another pair, but..........