Chris A Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Here is another article of interest having to do with toe-in and imaging: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/3/1624347/Toe-In%20--%20DOPE%20from%20HOPE.pdf Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I have heard that stuffing the box can increase bass response, but it seems to me that is with ported and reflex enclosures.One of the comments that PWK made in that article was bass distortion - this is the difference between the Cornwall and the Khorn since they share common midrange and tweeter horns/drivers. It is low distortion bass that you're looking for, and you get that for free just by placing your speakers into the corners of the room. If you choose not to, you not only lose bass extension, but you also lose more severely in terms of distortion. PWK wrote a couple of good articles on speaker intermodulation distortion (IMD), which is non-harmonic in nature and is very objectionable to listeners. The articles make a bit more use of math than some of his other articles, but if you wade through it, you can see the real advantage of horns over direct-radiating speakers: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/3/1095142/mod_dist1.pdf http://community.klipsch.com/forums/storage/3/1095144/mod_dist2.pdf Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfelliot Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Cask05, Thanks for linking these posts. I have read them before, but a refresh is always good. The explaination of IM goes a long way in explaining why the the addition of sub(s) does more than just extend the low end in a direct radiator low end system. Thanks again..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP143 Posted December 20, 2011 Author Share Posted December 20, 2011 Has anyone here experimented with updating the woofer in their Heresy? I would hesitate with the Dayton another user here suggested awhile back due to comprimising the authenticity of the the speaker, but I would think Crites replacement driver wouldn't be considered "cheating" since it is the same paper based surround technology, but with heavier output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfelliot Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 TP143, I wouldn't mess with the woofer in the Heresy unless it a damaged. I replaced my center's with one of Crites only because I damaged the cone during the cabinet rebuild. I detected no difference in the bass. You may find a woofer that goes lower, but you need to match the T/S parameters including efficiency as close as possible. This is not as easy as it sounds. If you want more low end you really need to try getting them into the corners. A second solution is to do what I do and add a sub. The Heresy with a goodd sub is a pretty impressive speaker system. I direct all below 85Hz away from the Heresy and to the subs via my AVR. I would rather have the Heresy with the subs than my Cornwalls alone. Now the Cornwalls with the subs is a whole other story!!! Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I concur with Chuck's recommendation. The Heresy was never intended to be a "mini-monitor speaker on stands" and placed away from the room's walls. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I concur with Chuck's recommendation. The Heresy was never intended to be a "mini-monitor speaker on stands" and placed away from the room's walls. Chris This is from the Klipsch Heritage Reference Data v.2 file: 1957: The Heresy is introduced as a center channel for the Klipschorn. It is the first Klipsch speaker that does not require corner placement.... The low bass from the Klipschorns was meant to fill the room. In a way, the low end of the Khorns were the equivalent of the subwoofer in this setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 See enclosure for a discussion from PWK on this subject. Three-Speaker Arrays.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 See enclosure for a discussion from PWK on this subject. Thanks for pointing that out. I remember reading this before, and had forgotten about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I wouldn't play with the values in the crossover. You may very well find that the new caps will sound better and I would do that first. As a second option, the diaphragms of the K77 tweeters may need replacing. You have a choice here. Bob Crites site offers the parts to rebuild the tweeters and he also offers a complete replacement tweeter for $160/pair. .....It is very unlikely that there is EVER any damage to diaphragms of K77's in a heresy...... Not what I have heard from a number of sources including my local Klipsch dealer. The K77 doesn't blow, but grit built up in the gap causes problems after 25-30 years! I was also told by the same dealer the the K55 dosesn't share this problem and will go on for ever. I've been with this dealer for 40+ years and trust them. I replaced the K77 in my center and there was a marked difference for the better. OK, so maybe a little cleaning out of DIRT, but my statement was based on the assumption of non-abusive power levels in actual usage vs., say, in a Khorn or LaScala in a club atmosphere with an "A" network. The rising impedance of the tweeter section, which, BTW gives lower amplifier distortion than an 8 ohm resistor (Dope From Hope) helps keep the watts reaching the tweeter for less thermal stress and very rare burnout of the voice coil (again I assume non-abuse). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denhabr Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 TP143, Agreed the subwoofer suggestion from cfelliot. Don't mess with it unless it is blown. I too have 1980 vintage Heresy I HBR's (103U425/426), and blew my woofer out about 11 years ago. I just replaced the K-22-R with a factory Kilpsch K-24-E replacement. Sounded fine afterwards. However, today I just performed the crossover repair/upgrade from Crites for my E-Series network, and WOW, what an amazing difference! After 31+ years, I had forgotten just how beautiful they sounded...and now with the new Sonicap caps, the speakers have once again come alive! Just to be fair (and as mentioned above,) previous mods included replacing both woofers, and the "plumber's caulk wrap" to the tweeter and squawker horns. Today, along with the Crites crossover repair kit, I replaced the horn-to-driver gasket with Crite's replacement, added weather-seal strips to the back case, cleaned all electrical connections with DeoxIT, and replaced the 8 back cover screws with slight larger and longer stainless steel screws (which I countersunk into the back cover. Otherwise, the Heresy's are stock...and sound fantastic coupled to my 1980 Sansui G-5700 receiver (supplemented with a Klipsch KSW-200 subwoofer on the lower end.) Can't recommend the Crites crossover repair kit more! Best bang for the buck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 ...Can't recommend the Crites crossover repair kit more! Best bang for the buck. +1 [Y] It's funny how good you think they sound but then you replace the caps and hear how much better they CAN sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP143 Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 I have made a few small mods based on member recommendation and past forum discussions and am happy so far. I think the next is too replace the crossover. I decided that I would like a new type of cap and inductor and will be building my own. So, I am offering my current crossovers for sale. I apologize if this is not the correct place within the forum for selling. If anyone is interested in a pair of clean, perfectly working type E crossovers for the Heresy, please let me know. I have seen singles go on Ebay for $69 so I am asking $110 for the pair. I just want to free up some funds for the crossover rebuild. Thanks everyone for the suggestions so far! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfelliot Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I have made a few small mods based on member recommendation and past forum discussions and am happy so far. I think the next is too replace the crossover. I decided that I would like a new type of cap and inductor and will be building my own. So, I am offering my current crossovers for sale. I apologize if this is not the correct place within the forum for selling. If anyone is interested in a pair of clean, perfectly working type E crossovers for the Heresy, please let me know. I have seen singles go on Ebay for $69 so I am asking $110 for the pair. I just want to free up some funds for the crossover rebuild. Thanks everyone for the suggestions so far! I going to replace my e crossovers with these when the come out the end of the month: http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/156255.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hale Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 TP143- Sorry, I'm coming into this thread a little late. I have worked on my Heresy 1's (and La Scalas and Fortes) and I do highly recommend changing the crossover, and the woofer. My Heresy's originally sounded as you discribed yours, thin and bright. They were designed to be bass-shy. If you haven't seen it yet, look for John Albright's post, Heresy 1 crossover upgrade. For me, putting the horns on different autotransformer taps (with the 11 ohm impedance swamping resistor and bigger midrange cap) that took them down 3dB made a huge improvement, and brought them closer to being a real stereo pair with more even frequency response. New caps in any old crossover is good improvement. I also put in the new woofers from critesspeakers, and I highly recommend this, too. Not only was the bass improved, but the timbre and detail of this range was improved, also, making for much better listening enjoyment. The Crites woofer is simply a much better woofer. I think my old woofers, which looked good, were soft and mushy. I used Albright's crossover design, but with a 3rd order Butterworth tweeter network, 2uF cap, to 1.8mH (correction: 0.18mH) shunt coil, to a 7uF cap to the tweeter. The Erse Super Q inductors are a good improvement over the old Klipsch woofer inductors. My old ones were terribly mis-matched, too. I also put new diaphrams in the mid drivers. This was a nice improvement, too, not as much an improvement with my speakers as the new woofer or dropping the horns down 3dB. I mostly enjoyed a little more body to the lower midrange, and a little more clarity and smoothness. I haven't put in the new tweeters, yet, one of these days.... A good subwoofer works very well with Heresy's (I would say they're essential, but I need bass down to 30 hz). I have a 10" Dayton Titanic III kit, and a Hsu VTF 2 MKIII. Either one helps out the Heresy's a lot, the Hsu VTF subs are quite good. Happy listening, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hale Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I should add, that an ALK crossover would be a fine improvement, too, dropping the horns down and smoothing-out the huge midrange impedance peak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 "3rd order Butterworth tweeter network, 2uF cap, to 1.8mH(I think) shunt coil, to a 7uF cap to the tweeter" I think you mean 2.2µF+0.18mH+6.8µF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hale Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Yes, thanks, djk! Coil I used is .18mH. (I'll try to correct the earlier post, too.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP143 Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 Can someone give some direction on how I would "drop the horn down 3db?" This has been mentioned a few times and if it as easy as re-soldering to a different flange on the autotransformer I would be willing to try. Would be an easy un-do if the sound was no improvement. Also, has anyone scrapped the soldering with the autotransformer and woofer connections and installed metal clips that slide onto the flanges? Can't remember what these are called but I have seen them and it seems one could avoid the hassle of soldering. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hale Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 You could use the push on connectors, this would allow some experimentation. But with all the vibrating going on because of the darn music, a solder connection is much sturdier and will sound better in the long run. Woofers with push on connectors will often sound better with the wires soldered to the woofer terminals. You must use clean surfaces and heat sinks to be quick without overheating the rest of the woofer wiring and coil. Practice on throwaway connectors to gain experience. (Another reason to eshew push-ons is that you can minimize connections throughout your gear for better sound.) If your speakers already have push-on connectors to the autoformer, then it's an easy experiment. You must use one of two choices below for a resistor to be added! The T2A autoformer has taps 0 to 5. The (-)squawker wire is originally on tap 2. Moved (resoldered) to tap 1 drops the level 3dB. The (-)tweeter wire, also, should be moved (reconnected) from tap 3 to tap 2. You must add the 11 ohm 10W resistor and change the midrange cap to 21uF as shown in John Albright's post "Heresy 1 crossover upgrade." (Do an advanced search.) A simpler way to try the 3dB drop is reconnecting the wires to taps as mentioned above, but keep the same caps and put a 15 ohm 10 W resistor across the midrange connections on the board, connected from positive to negative on the midrange. That is described Albright's post, and other posts. Keep looking. There's a nice photo somewhere. You get the 3dB drop in the horns, but you don't get a smooth impedance curve for the speaker. Funny nobody mentioned another big reason the Heresy 1 can sound thin and shrill, it's the K77 tweeter. Many folks find it nasty sounding. For some, it would be the first thing to replace. (Bass was more important to me, which was why I went the way I did. I have a new Selenium tweeter to mount on the top, one of these days...) There is not much space to put a new type of tweeter in the cabinet. Critesspeakers has a drop in replacement. Sounds much better than the original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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