Klipschorn Compatibility � The Math

[AnalogWave]

??… or, which came first, the Klipschorn or the Room?

??I’ve long thought how fantastic it would be if a pair of Klipschorns presented themselves at a reasonable price. That just may be the case as of the last few days, so I got to thinking – just how compatible is my living space???

From the Klipschorn manual:

?“Klipschorn speakers typically perform best when positioned in the corners on the long wall of a rectangular room. If the room is very narrow and long with corners farther apart than 18 to 20 feet, the stereo image may not be optimal. A room with a length to width ratio of 1.00 to .618 is preferred. In addition, Klipschorn loudspeakers seem to benefit from ceiling heights no lower than 8.5 feet. The Klipschorn requires corner placement because the walls of the room serve to complete the speaker’s low frequency horn. To achieve full low frequency extension, the Klipschorn should fit tightly in a corner without baseboard or trim interference and the wall surfaces should extend at least 25 inches beyond the side grilles.”

My room is indeed rectangular and measures 12.5 x 20.166 feet, which results in a ratio of .619 – a squeaker. Regarding the ratio range of 1.00 to .618, a ratio of 1.00 would equate to a square room, which goes against the recommendation of placing them against the long wall of a rectangular room. Further math (not my strong suit) tells me a ratio of .81 would be the middle ideal (the Golden Ratio as it were) for which one possible result is a 16 x 20 foot room. So I’m wondering… how acceptable would the sound of Khorns be at the extreme of .618 (technically speaking, “Preferred”) yet still 20 feet apart as measured from the corners (not so “Preferred”)? Would the stereo image be pulled too far apart for proper staging yet a solid center???

As for the corners of my listening room, I’d say they’re 80%+ ideal, the faults being there is a baseboard and the corners aren’t quite as deep as the recommended 48 inches (46.5 inches to the left, 41.5 inches to the right). The right corner also has a cable jack that will likely come into play – maybe there is a 90 degree connector solution vs. the straight connector currently in place.?? Otherwise, they are "clean", just the odd piece of art on the wall.

My ceiling is nine foot, so that bodes well.??

The speakers themselves are type KC-BR and built in 1977. Still not sure I can swing the cash, but if they’re factory stock, I’m guessing the crossovers should be rebuilt/replaced. What else if anything should be taken into account (strengths or weaknesses) compared to older or newer models?

[Guest " "]

much to consider.......one aspect can be illustrated with this diagram. A room the shape as yours, has a relatively small sweet spot which comprices the intersect point of the horns.....you basically have to have your back right against the wall in the circle indicated in this diagram. you can move the sweet spot more towards the center of the room which would enlarge the circle by enclosing the backs and tilting the speakers more toward the center of the room. Jubilee owners will jump in and testify the merits of the jube design. These kind of rooms are excellent cornwall or cornscalla rooms.

[JJkizak]

My room is 22.5 x 12 with an open door on the left side and a closed door on the right side and 8 foot ceiling. The lower backs of the k-horns have the board cut out to fit over the baseboards. The sides of the k-horns have 3/4" pipe insulation to seal the edges. The center stereo image is not that good however with the addition of the powered center Cornwall it filled in nicely. My room fails the glide tone tests but it does sound good with the receiver set to the PLC-II position. I don't need to sit in the center of the room, I can walk around the entire room and the instrument positions and voices are static. The equalizer bass is set to +6 db at 30hz and the bass control on the receiver is set to about +8db. At 98 db SPL (if you can stand it) it is loud and clean and will blow your mind. The sub adds to the bass down to 20hz.

JJK

[Chris A]

My room is indeed rectangular and measures 12.5 x 20.166 feet, which results in a ratio of .619 – a squeaker.

For reference, I've included a link to the PWK article on the subject.

The inverse of 0.619 is 1.616 - and your 9' ceiling height would be a ratio of 1.39. Both of these dimensions fit into PWK's chart (i.e., 1.39 along the horizontal axis, 1.616 along the vertical). Your 20' dimension may result in the need for a center speaker, but if the corners are clear, and the area between the speakers, i.e., the front wall, is also fairly clear of reflectors, you should enjoy really fine stereo imaging.

If you have the need to aim Khorns directly at your listening position, which might cause you to want to position the speakers at an angle that is not 45 degrees to the corner walls, you could always build false corners. The use of false corners decouples the bass horn positioning in the corners from the need to want to point the top hats at your listening position.

I’m guessing the crossovers should be rebuilt/replaced.

Just the capacitors will need replacement.

What else if anything should be taken into account (strengths or weaknesses) compared to older or newer models?

They should sound just like other Khorns, once the capacitors are replaced.

Chris

[Groomlakearea51]

Excellent post from Cask!! [Y][Y][Y]

[tromprof]

I wouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, I bet a pair of k-horns will sound great in your room. When I first got mine I had them on the short wall of a 16x20 room and they sounded fantastic to me at the time. True, when I moved them to the longer wall they sounded better, but I thought the sweet spot was a bit forward of the couch against the back wall and I would often sit in a chair in front of the couch. You have the most important ingredient, corners. Go for it!

[AnalogWave]

To gain better perspective, here are some photos of the room...

[AnalogWave]

much to consider.......one aspect can be illustrated with this diagram. A room the shape as yours, has a relatively small sweet spot which comprices the intersect point of the horns.....you basically have to have your back right against the wall in the circle indicated in this diagram. you can move the sweet spot more towards the center of the room which would enlarge the circle by enclosing the backs and tilting the speakers more toward the center of the room. Jubilee owners will jump in and testify the merits of the jube design. These kind of rooms are excellent cornwall or cornscalla rooms.

Mike - is the circle shifted to the left due to the deeper left corner?

[AnalogWave]

My room is 22.5 x 12 with an open door on the left side and a closed door on the right side and 8 foot ceiling. The lower backs of the k-horns have the board cut out to fit over the baseboards. The sides of the k-horns have 3/4" pipe insulation to seal the edges. The center stereo image is not that good however with the addition of the powered center Cornwall it filled in nicely. My room fails the glide tone tests but it does sound good with the receiver set to the PLC-II position. I don't need to sit in the center of the room, I can walk around the entire room and the instrument positions and voices are static. The equalizer bass is set to +6 db at 30hz and the bass control on the receiver is set to about +8db. At 98 db SPL (if you can stand it) it is loud and clean and will blow your mind. The sub adds to the bass down to 20hz.

JJK

JJ - the use of (need for) a center channel is my biggest fear as it's not really a possiblity for me. I sit on something called a... wait for it... "Lovesac". It's basically a bean bag (though they hate when you call it that) filled with memory foam. It's low to the ground, so putting my plasma on the wall high enough to clear an adequate center channel would have me looking up at the panel. On top of that, while I have a nice Denon for processing all the video stuff, I have an all tube setup for 2 ch listening consisting of a pair of Mark's pCATs fed by a Blueberry Xtreme, thus no simple, direct functionality for a center channel.

What is a "Glide Tone" test?

It seems as though you've gone to fair lengths to ensure solid bass from the Khorns so I'm kinda' surprised you felt a need for a sub. In the Klipsch lineup (factory stock), aren't the Khorns the end-all for bass? Are your Khorns used for HT as well and/or do you enjoy listening to organ music?

[AnalogWave]

My room is indeed rectangular and measures 12.5 x 20.166 feet, which results in a ratio of .619 – a squeaker.

For reference, I've included a link to the PWK article on the subject.

The inverse of 0.619 is 1.616 - and your 9' ceiling height would be a ratio of 1.39. Both of these dimensions fit into PWK's chart (i.e., 1.39 along the horizontal axis, 1.616 along the vertical). Your 20' dimension may result in the need for a center speaker, but if the corners are clear, and the area between the speakers, i.e., the front wall, is also fairly clear of reflectors, you should enjoy really fine stereo imaging.

If you have the need to aim Khorns directly at your listening position, which might cause you to want to position the speakers at an angle that is not 45 degrees to the corner walls, you could always build false corners. The use of false corners decouples the bass horn positioning in the corners from the need to want to point the top hats at your listening position.

I’m guessing the crossovers should be rebuilt/replaced.

Just the capacitors will need replacement.

What else if anything should be taken into account (strengths or weaknesses) compared to older or newer models?

They should sound just like other Khorns, once the capacitors are replaced.

Chris

Chris (my name as well), I'm embarassed to say I didn't find your previous posts on the matter. In partial defense, I do find the software usef for this forum rather frustrating at times - the search function is kinda' weak compared to what I'm used to elsewhere. For instance, I'd rather see just the thread referenced once when searching rather than each and every post in a thread - too much debris for me and I bail.

Your posts are fascinating and for the most part I'm understanding all of it (cogratulations). They are at the same time, however, creating serious doubt in my mind (as far as I've gotten through them). I've come to the outsiders conclusion that the Klipschorn, regardless of it's implied simplicity, may well be the hardest speaker to find a proper home for. More in depth reading of your posts is required. Maybe you can comment on just how clear my walls really are.

[AnalogWave]

Excellent post from Cask!!

Every time I see your Avatar I fight back a tear. God I miss Peter.

[AnalogWave]

I wouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, I bet a pair of k-horns will sound great in your room. When I first got mine I had them on the short wall of a 16x20 room and they sounded fantastic to me at the time. True, when I moved them to the longer wall they sounded better, but I thought the sweet spot was a bit forward of the couch against the back wall and I would often sit in a chair in front of the couch. You have the most important ingredient, corners. Go for it!

I am diggin' your positive vibes, it's just that spending this kind of money with a fair amount of uncertainty is kinda' scary and to be honest, flat out irresponsible when I consider a few other much more important things I should be looking after. I've no one to tell me "No", so I could see myself getting a little careless, but I really don't want to have to spend more money trying to get the best out of the Khorns - plug-n-play or stay away is what I'm thinking. Also, sitting in the picture is a pair of Paradigm Studio 40s but I've a nice pair of Forte II with all the B.C. goodies under wraps in another room. I suppose some day I could look for a pair of Corwalls if the itch must be scratched.

[Chris A]

Maybe you can comment on just how clear my walls really are.

This corner is good - but you might want to move some of those objects away from the corner--about 4 feet away from the Khorn in the corner as a rule of thumb.

This center portion looks pretty good in terms of reflectors - since the corners are far enough away from these objects, you may not need to do very much here.

This corner is a bit more involved, but I think that you'll get enough wall extension to support the right Khorn bass bin pretty well. I assume that the bookcase in the corner would find a new home in another part of the room or in another room.

Also, I assume that the front left and right speakers would be moved out of the way. That would leave the center console and the tube amps on the floor - these are okay where they are. The CD racks on the wall might be far enough away from the corners to support a "smooth boundary" effect, but you might wind up putting a little absorbent material on the outside of the boxes (something like a form-cut section of an acoustic tile to cut down on midrange reflections).

Good news: I don't think that you'll have problems with a center stereo hole in your setup if you pay a little attention to the stuff in between that's already there in your room. I believe that there is a lot to be done before you'd have to resort to a center channel speaker.

Chris A.

[AnalogWave]

Correct, the barrel chair and bookcase would go. The floor lamps could easily be replaced if necessary with something that would sit atop the the Khorns. The Studio 40s would go and the amps could slide left/right accordingly. I've ripped all the CDs, so they don't need to be there - Lord knows I've a ton of stuff I could eventually get framed and put on the wall. The right corner is shallow, so that is what it is. The left corner... I could lose or shorten the shelves, they're just boards and bricks. I'm glad the mid wall is innocuous. Now if I can just get a response outta' the guy selling the speakers. They're really close, too. If I get the chance to inspect and listen to them, is there anything I should be looking for like rust in the trunk or wheel wells?

[emmvette]

No offense meant: don't over-analyze. You have corners, an acceptional tube amp and pre that no doubt match well with Klipschorns. All the rest is easy. Just buy them, if you can't get them, get a different pair. You won't have trouble selling them should you change your mind down the road. I'm guessing you won't regret it.

If it doesn't work out, I would suggest with the nice amplification you have trying a pair of Cornwalls.

My next suggestion if none of that sounds good is to sell me the PCats. I would love to have a pair. []

My Khorns are not installed in corners as nice as yours, and they sound awesome.

[AnalogWave]

Oh none taken. Fact is, I've never stood in the presence of Klipschorns let alone listened to a pair. Cornwalls are as far as I've climbed the Heritage Tree - used to rip Tchaikovsky's 1812 through a set the local dealer had a couple decades back. What are the dimensions of your room if you don't mind me asking?

[Chris A]

If I get the chance to inspect and listen to them, is there anything I should be looking for like rust in the trunk or wheel wells?

Just like Eric mentioned - if you get a chance to audition and inspect the Khorns, just use your gut and your ears. If you like what you see and hear, you've done due diligence.

The only thing that I'd mention is that Khorns needing new capacitors in their crossovers might sound strange: lacking highs, etc. Poorly set-up Khorns in terms of room acoustics will sound tonally unbalanced. Khorns not in good corners will sound very bass shy. These aren't indicators of bad speakers. Visually look for signs of abuse such as moisture damage, and listen for damaged/blown drivers that are not operating.

Khorns are very sturdy speakers unlike many other speaker types so they have to be very abused to incur physical damage.

Chris

[JJkizak]

I added the sub to see what it would do as I thought my low end hearing had diminishing skills. . My frequency test disc showed that with the sub I could easily hear down to 19HZ wheras without the sub 30 to 32 HZ was pretty weak and below 30HZ there was nothing. The sub could also pick up some of the bass string rattle on one of the Clapton discs. The sub is turned all the way up and cut off at 80HZ. I use the system for HT also but tone it down a bit.

Glide tones start out at the high end limit and slowly lower to the low bass limit. as they progress downward you should hear them at the same location all the way down. Poor room acoustics will dance them around in all directions as they progress downward. These glide tones being on my very old CBS test records. Cost me $300.00 in the 1960's.

JJK

[AnalogWave]

Yoinks! $300 in the 60's?! That's like.... three million dollars in today's money. Interesting concept though - I'll poke around the Nets and see what I can find.

[Chris A]

http://ap.com/products/accessories/other

One example only.