Klipsch too efficient for Audyssey

[chambers1517]

I have an IB sub with 4 18" drivers. My sub can keep up. My Audyssey is the X32 version. I raise the sub volume with the sub amp. If I set it to 75 Audyssey leaves the gain at zero but if I set it to 85, Audyssey cuts it by 10. I never knew I had an issue until I noticed all speakers were set to -12 and the sub at 0. I would then raise the sub and Audyssey would cut it back. If 12 is the maximum trim and your fronts are outputting 95, your still 8db too hot. If your rears are outputting 90 then they are still 3db too hot compared to the sub. Audyessy can't balange and integrate all channels since it can't trim them enough. I bought an inline headphone volume control at Radio Shack and cut my Mic sensitivity enough to get the trim off of max cut. I asked Audyssey if this would work and they said it was a good idea for my problem. The vol control was 8 bucks. I didm't know that Audyssey tries to set every channel to 75 but it does. It doesn't look at speaker to speaker balance it just tries to set every channel to 75.

[Quiet_Hollow]

If I set it to 75 Audyssey leaves the gain at zero but if I set it to 85, Audyssey cuts it by 10. I never knew I had an issue until I noticed all speakers were set to -12 and the sub at 0. I would then raise the sub and Audyssey would cut it back.

When the DSP would cut the sub signal, after your adjustment, what happened to the trim level going to the mains? Did they stay put at -12 or did they come up any?

[chambers1517]

Nope. Thes mains stay at -12 no matter what the sub is doing. It tries to get the mains to 75. That is the problem. If it would add gain to bala.ce everything it would work. It aims all speakers at 75 wheather it can get them there or not

[superedge88]

How far from the Mains is your seating position?

[nezff]

It also could be your room. This question would be perfect on audyssey facebook page or ASK Audyssey at audyssey.com

Chris will answer this quickly.

[guitarman]

Read this with great interest. I use a Denon 4311 with La Scalas (F), Fortes (Wides), KT-LCR ©, SS 1 (Heights and back), RS 3 (surround) and 2 DIY subs.

All Audyssey is trying to do is get the reference volume for all speakers set to 75db where the mic is located. The sub is in the same boat. In other words, the level of any speaker (including the sub) doesn't have anything to do with any other speaker...they are all trying to get to 75db at the listening position (which is the first mic position).

If all the speakers are at -12db, then you need to put the mic further away. Point the mic straight up. If they are still out of whack, you'll need to get a Radio Shack meter and adjust the levels manually. Nothing wrong with that at all. All it means is that when your volume is at 0 (on the relative scale which equats to 75db), you'll actually be listening at a louder level. (Example: Audyssey sets your La Scalas at -12. You adjust all the speakers with the Radio Shack meter and the La Scalas end up at -8. When you set the volume control to 0, you'll be at 79db instead of 75db.) Usually no one complains if its a little louder.

I always tweak my levels (some call them trims) for each channel with the rat shack meter. Usually involve bumping the center 1 or 2 db and bumping the sub 4-5 db.

[BE36]

+1 Unless the room has a really stange shape, get the room right and let sound come out with any "processing". Set the trim and cross over and call it a day.

You could always just set the relative channel levels manually....

[Quiet_Hollow]

I bought an inline headphone volume control at Radio Shack and cut my Mic sensitivity enough to get the trim off of max cut. I asked Audyssey if this would work and they said it was a good idea for my problem. The vol control was 8 bucks. I didm't know that Audyssey tries to set every channel to 75 but it does. It doesn't look at speaker to speaker balance it just tries to set every channel to 75.

That's an ingenious work around. Good grief, I understand your frustrations now! My appologies if I came across a little persistant, but I can now totally see where you were coming from.

Guess the only stone left unturned is, How does is sound to you now that everything is all trimmed-out correctly? Little more bass? [H]

[Rudy81]

Klipsch efficiency, or any other highly efficient speaker, can be a problem by causing Audyssey to reach its attenuation limits and still not be able to control the speaker level.

Just to be clear though, Audyssey does NOT depend on the sub for anything else. It treats the sub as a speaker just like it treats the mains. Audyssey is simply trying to set the individual speakers level to 75dB at the listening position. Messing around with the sub is not going to do anything positive for your problem.

If your speakers consistantly hit -12dB on the trim, you will need to find a way to attenuate those speakers by 6dB or so. If your amp has a sensitivity knob, you can use that to make the change. If you don't, you should look for some other way to reduce the signal strength going to that speaker. One option is an inline RCA attenuator, which I used back when I used a La Scala for my center.

All you know when your trims are set at the limit is that Audyssey did the best it could and hit the stops. Your speakers may be just right, need a little more trim, or need a lot more trim. The problem, is you don't know where you are.....and neither does Audyssey.

[Rudy81]

I previously used something similar to this: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=266-242

[chambers1517]

Ok guys still learning Audyssey and getting it to play with the Klipsch. I used the Mic. volume and it worked great. I used it to get about 11db cut across the front. This way MV was as close as I could get it and still not have the trims maxed. We were watching movies and my bass was just way too much. I had the MV at -10 and it seemed vocals were about right but the sub were blowing us out of the room. My reciever has Dynamic EQ which raises the bass at lower listening levels. Since my MV was at -10 the reciever thought I was listening at lower levels. I went into the speaker setup and ran the level calibration. During the test tones Dynamic EQ is ignored. All levels were matched but while watching movies the bass was loud. My reciever also has Intelli volume which allows you to cut or boost the volume for each input. With 11db cut on my Lascalas the test tone was still 87db. Iused Intelli volume to cut the input 12db.That means my Lascalas are being cut 23db to get me to 75db at a 0 on my MV. Man these Lascalas are loud but I think everything is dialed in and sounds awesome. I'm going to post pictures.

[Rudy81]

Using a volume control to reduce mic sensitivity seems like a bad idea to me. Aydyssey does way more to your system than just set the speaker volume level. Depending on what this volume control does, you may be messing with the mic, and system's, ability to properly set frequency response, time alignment etc.

I have been down this road before, and unless you can turn down the sensitivity on your amps, the best method is to use a signal attenuator inline with your channel inputs for the speakers that are difficult to control.

It doesn't make sense to me that your most recent readings produced good control on your mains, but your sub is blowing you out.

What you should do is run the system as intended, then use a sound meter to see if your mains are far off from the rest of your speakers. The -12dB setting may be close enough to the other speakers that you can ignore the problem. Otherwise you are going to have to figure out a way to reduce the output of the highly efficient speakers.

When I had Khorns, I had the same problem, but my Parasound HALO amp had individual sensitivity knobs and I could reduce the output at will. My center channel amp did not have that feature so I had to go with an inline attenuator.

I'm no expert on Audyssey, but trying to 'trick' Audyssey will most likely result in less than optimum performance.

[chambers1517]

I spoke with Audyessy and they said a volume on the mike is fine. No different than a volume on your preamp. Since my MV was so low it thought i was listening at low volume. That made Dynamic EQ crank up the bass.

[Rudy81]

You mentioned that at low volumes the sub was blowing you out of the room. That is not DynamicEQ. When I listen at low volume levels, DynamicEQ raises the relative bass enough to make it sound 'balanced' with the rest of the source material. I have two large tapped horn subs and they never blow me out of the room unless I really crank it up....an then everything is blowing you out of the room.

But, if Audyssey said it was fine, then enjoy.

[chambers1517]

I don't mean i am listening at low volume. It is loud in the room but my MV is at -10 so the reciever thinks i am listening at low volume and cranks the bass.

[t-man]

MY KLF 30s did the same thing. Bottomed out the trim levels. Basically, I had to then use the SPL meter and get the levels to within trim levels (not -12), but still balanced after running audyssey. Doing this means that your reference level will no longer be 75 dB at 00 on the receiver. This also means your Dynamic EQ will no longer work accurately. At least your speakers will be balanced and your room EQ from Audysey setup will still work.

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/p/152982/1600839.aspx#1600839

See link above for my report.

[chambers1517]

Thanks T-man that is what I found.I ran the test tones un the reciever and found that it was 87db. This means at 0mv I am still too loud. My reciever has Intell volume which lets you adjust each input so i cut my blu ray player input by 12db. Now 0mv setting should be 75 db and deq should be working ok.

[t-man]

So your receiver has built in attenuators (adjustable) for each input including the HDMI? That's pretty cool. A nice solution for you in this case!

[chambers1517]

Yep it lets you cut every input even the hdmi. It is an integra 70.2. So it takes 11 db cut on the trims and 12 db cut on the input just to get to the volume of a normal speaker.

[JCole]

I don't mean i am listening at low volume. It is loud in the room but my MV is at -10 so the reciever thinks i am listening at low volume and cranks the bass.

Yes that's kind of the reason why reducing the mic volume is a bad idea. Audyssey is giving you that answer to get your out of their hair, since they programmed audyssey with some hard values that they can't offer a solution for.

It's funny to me that Audyssey thinks it's perfectly fine to give you a solution that blows you out of the room if you listen at anything other than reference volume.

Lets also hope that the volume control doesn't add a delay, or change the frequency response of the mic by adding in a random variable resistor. At this point you have no idea if the frequency response, delay, room acoustics or any other calulation is correct, AND the levels are not matched to the MV display.

One solution could be to cut the trim levels for your inputs, and then hope that Adyssey doesn't over-ride those while doing initial level matching. If it DOES, I would look for a different solution as you're paying for all these audyssey calculations and getting none of the benefits that you could just as easily get with an SPL meter.

If you have pre-outs I would consider driving the front soundstage with a cheap amp that has adjustible gains. You could pick up a used behringer or crown amp for $100.