RF-83 + RC-62 Amping Question

[tmassey]

I have been doing quite a bit of research here, and at places like AVSForum and there seems to be two contradicting lines of thought. As the title says, I have a pair of RF-83s (just got them and I love them, though I feel I am not doing them justice. I previously had the VF-35s which from Best Buy so the upgrade in question is HUGE) with an RC-62. When I move, I plan on upgrading the center to an RC-64 and start looking into getting a few surrounds, but that is a little down the road. Anyway, I am seeing two conflicting answers usually when it comes to getting an amp for these speakers which are...

A) The RF-83s are so efficient, getting an amp will make almost no difference.

The RF-83s recommended power is 250w and they love every bit of it.

Right now, I am driving them with a Pioneer VSX-1018 AH (110 watt / channel over 7 channels. I've done a little more research on the receiver and there are a lot of reports out there talking about how inefficient receivers tend to be, especially when it comes to some of the lower end ones. I've even heard people claiming I would be lucky to get 60 watts per channel out of the receiver. That is a far-cry from the claimed 110 watts.

So, to anyone who has direct experience with the RF-83s and amps and has a good ear, my question, did you find there was a difference in sound quality? I am digging the Emotiva XPA-3. It's right in my price range, and I haven't heard really any negative reviews about them. There was a Klipsch Dealer close that closed up shop, they were always good about letting me take speakers home to listen, are other dealers like that? Will they look at me like I am crazy if I ask to take an amp home to demo?

Thanks for any help and sorry, I am sure this question has been asked a ton of times already.

[elitedemo]

A) The RF-83s are so efficient, getting an amp will make almost no difference.
The RF-83s recommended power is 250w and they love every bit of it.

IMO the only part of Part A that is correct is they are very efficient, getting an amp over receiver makes a great difference on these

Part B really holds true, I've had 3 receivers and 4 different amps on the 83s, they love power

A xpa-3 will be a nice improvement for the frontstage, I started with emotiva with the xpa3 on the 83s and 64 before adding 2 more speakers and then deciding the xpa2/5 worked best for me

EDIT: And welcome to the forum

[Youthman]

Welcome to the Klipsch forums!

While I am no expert, nor do I claim to be an audiophile, here is my take on answering your questions.

The RF-83s are so efficient

This is absolutely true. They "can" be powered with very little wattage. I originally used a Harman Kardon AVR55 (55 watts/ch) and it sounded great. Problem was when I really tried to crank it. Just ran out of juice, vocals became harsh etc.

getting an amp will make almost no difference

I totally disagree. Although my experience adding my Parasound (220w x 5) to my system was not night and day difference, I did experience better separation of musical instruments, more pronounced bass even at lower volumes and absolutely have never felt that I came anywhere near "running out of gas". My ears will give out long before the amp and speakers will. You can read about my experience adding my amp here, here, here my build thread and a "My Initial Impressions of the Parasound HCA-2205 amp" here.

Right now, I am driving them with a Pioneer VSX-1018 AH (110 watt / channel over 7 channels. I've done a little more research on the receiver and there are a lot of reports out there talking about how inefficient receivers tend to be, especially when it comes to some of the lower end ones. I've even heard people claiming I would be lucky to get 60 watts per channel out of the receiver. That is a far-cry from the claimed 110 watts.

That was my experience with my previous Yamaha RX-V1800 receiver. It was an upper end receiver at $1200 new. Claimed to have 130 watts x 7. Then a friend showed me bench tests that proved something like 130 x 2, 110 x 3, 90 x 5 and a whopping 55 x 7. I myself had a 5.1 system and tried 7.1 on the Yamaha and quickly found out that I had to turn the receiver WAY up to get even near the same volume as I did with 5 speakers. It wasn't until after I read the benchtest review that I found out the reason why.

So, to anyone who has direct experience with the RF-83s and amps and has a good ear, my question, did you find there was a difference in sound quality?

Short answer, Yes. Long answer, read my links above.

I am digging the Emotiva XPA-3. It's right in my price range, and I haven't heard really any negative reviews about them.

I was considering the XPA-3 as well for around $400 - $450. Was trying to work out a deal with a forum member but he wasn't able to part with it so I bought my Parasound for a few hundred more than I wanted to spend $750 but it was still a great purchase, even though the amp is 10 years old. Only negative thing I've heard about the Emotiva amps with Klipsch is some have experienced a loud noise floor (hiss etc). Basically, you hear sound even when music is not playing. Depending on how far back you are from the speakers, you might not even hear them.

Hope that helps.

[Scrappydue]

Hello,
I just bought an XPA-2 and hooked it to my rf-63's and although not a night and day difference in my small (10x11) room, what i do notice it that my mids and highs have really opened up and there is much more musical seperation. and the other big thing i was looking for was more dynamics at a lower volume. and that is defintely there now!! they sound just as dynamic at turn on volume, as they do when i have them up towards reference levels. i agree with elite as the xpa-2/5 would probably be the way to go. i added up every possible combo as far as powering seven speakers in the long run. and you spend just a little more to have the 300 for your fronts and 200 the rest of the way around. i wanted the xpa-3 cause it was in my price range brand new. that means i would have had to buy a xpa-5 and had one channel unused, or buy another xpa-3 along with the upa-1 mono to have 7 channels. so what i did was go the used route and saved some moeny and found a sweet local deal from an older gentleman so i knew it was not ran hard as he listened to classic at a very low volume, so i knew i was getting a well taken care of amp for the money. plus still have 4 years left on the warranty. plan on buying the xpa-5 as soon as i find another sweet deal!! hope this is a little food for thought for you!

[willland]

Tmassey,

Welcome to the forum.

A) The RF-83s are so efficient, getting an amp will make almost no difference.

The RF-83's are fantastic speakers that can be powered with few watts but really do like power. Those things have (3) 8 inch drivers per speaker that need to move and the only way to really move them is with some horsepower. Adding a quality amplifier to a midlevel receiver will improve bass drive noticeably especially at lower volumes. I think you will notice a host of improvements including a wider deeper soundstage, fine detail in the mids and highs, and as mentioned much better bass response.

All these things I experienced when I added a quality 200w/channel amp to my midlevel Onkyo TX-SR705 driving my RF-63/RC-64 combo. Night and day, no, noticeable, yes very much.

Bill

[tmassey]

Thanks for the quick replies, it has been a ton of help, and admittedly, what I was hoping to hear! Now I just have to decide if I should get the XPA-5 now and save myself a few hundred when I need another amp for surrounds.

Also, great setups! I am really looking forward to getting hooked up with a better center and surrounds. These things have even helped to broaden my music horizon. There are a ton of songs out there I never really paid a lot of attention to just because I could never really hear all the details. Currently listening to Beck - Seachange and can't get enough of it.

[Beechnut]

Try this analogy:

You have two vehicles that can both go 70 miles per hour. The 4 cylinder family sedan vs the v8 sport coupe. The latter does it effortlessly and at a lower rpm with more headroom to push even further (read: can go much faster).

Clean dedicated stand alone horsepower beats multipurpose. YMMV.

[SuBXeRo]

be sure to check out other brands as well. alot of people njoy the marantz monoblocks. Integra makes some good multichannel amps as well as parasound and rotel although rotel is starting to go class D with alot of their amps instead of class A/B. Anthem is good but starts to get pricey. Arcam and Acurus are coming back into play. You can look at B&K amps as many have said they absolutely love them. Emotiva and Outlaw Audio are your two really good internet brands that sell amps.

What is a price range you'd like to stay in?

[tmassey]

That is a good questino SuBXeRo. This isn't really a hobby of mine as much as it is just wanting a good setup that will last a long time, so I would like to spend enough to buy an amp that will last through the ages. Because I just kind of spent the money on the RF-83s on a whim because I found a good deal, I am a little short on spending money. I would really prefer to keep it under 800$, but it wouldn't kill me to wait and save up more if I have to. I think I am planning on keeping an eye on Audiogon and just wait it out and see what I can get an amp for. So far, used doesn't seem a lot cheaper than buying new. I am really leaning towards the XPA-3 though, according to these sigs, that is what a lot of others went for that like the RF-83s. It also falls right in my price range. I did look over most of them brands and they don't really seem to offer what I am looking for, or I am not looking in the right places.<br/><br/>

Also I have been looking at centers. I hear a lot of people claiming they can hear a noticable difference between the RC-64ii and RC-64. What is your guys' take on this? It's really hard to demo RC-64s in the same room as the iis because they have been discontinued. I am thinking the RC-64s would be a better match for the RF-63s.<br/><br/>

Again, thanks for all the help.

[Youthman]

So far, used doesn't seem a lot cheaper than buying new.

It was in my case. My amp was around $2000 new, paid $750 used.

Benefit of the XPA-3 is warranty, powerful, and 30 day return policy if you do not like it. I believe they have free shipping too (haven't looked in awhile).

Also I have been looking at centers. I hear a lot of people claiming they can hear a noticable difference between the RC-64ii and RC-64. What is your guys' take on this?

Buy the center that was designed for your speakers. RF-83's with RC-64 or RF-7ii's with RC-64ii. Whether or not one is better than the other, mixing it with speakers it was not timbre matched to is typically not a good idea. Also, the veneer, style and grills all look different as well. I would keep them in the same set.

[SuBXeRo]

That is a good questino SuBXeRo. This isn't really a hobby of mine as much as it is just wanting a good setup that will last a long time, so I would like to spend enough to buy an amp that will last through the ages. Because I just kind of spent the money on the RF-83s on a whim because I found a good deal, I am a little short on spending money. I would really prefer to keep it under 800$, but it wouldn't kill me to wait and save up more if I have to. I think I am planning on keeping an eye on Audiogon and just wait it out and see what I can get an amp for. So far, used doesn't seem a lot cheaper than buying new. I am really leaning towards the XPA-3 though, according to these sigs, that is what a lot of others went for that like the RF-83s. It also falls right in my price range. I did look over most of them brands and they don't really seem to offer what I am looking for, or I am not looking in the right places.<br/><br/>

Also I have been looking at centers. I hear a lot of people claiming they can hear a noticable difference between the RC-64ii and RC-64. What is your guys' take on this? It's really hard to demo RC-64s in the same room as the iis because they have been discontinued. I am thinking the RC-64s would be a better match for the RF-63s.<br/><br/>

Again, thanks for all the help.

What are you looking for in an amp that you arent finding out there? Let us know so we can research a little bit. The more specific you are the better.

Since admit to not really being an audiohead like the rest of us and just need something that will last a long time, be specific with us so we can help you determine what may be a good match for you. Your setup works as it stands so waiting a little bit and buying the amp you actually want may be the best way to go.

[tmassey]

Really, I am looking for one of two things.

First Choice is to get a 3 channel amp to drive my fronts and center, preferrably 200-250 watts per channel and once I get my surrounds going, get a 4 channel amp if I decide to complete a 5/7.1 setup.

Second Choice is to get a 7 channel amp. However after looking at prices for these, the 125 watts per channel are usually affordable, but once you get into the 200 watt range, prices go up dramatically for 5 and 7 channel amps, which is understandable because it's a lot more power overall, but unfortunate for my particular situation.

To answer your question, I am looking for a good solid 3 channel amp anywhere in the 200-250 watt range, and probably your opinion on the life-times I can expect out of these. Obviously, I am more than happy to pay a few hundred more for the peace of mind of knowing what I have will last. I should also mention I don't really ever have the volume too high. I have been poking around a little on the Outlaw site, I am a little disapointed they dont have any 3 channel amps but the Model 7500 looks perfect for what I eventually want. I am not really seeing a huge advantage of getting an amp to drive the rear surrounds as there still isn't a lot of 7.1 content out there to really take advantage of them.

I am still a little undecided myself as to the direction I should take, and I am inclined to agree with you and to just wait it out and save up, and keep looking for a good deal.

Again, thanks a ton of all your help! It has been extremely informative.

[Beechnut]

Another option FWIW:

I'll be picking up a 2ch amp and then adding a 5ch later to go 7.1. Currently 5.1. I'm going to let the AVR drive the center and surrounds. My goal is to clean up the power for the RF7iis and improve 2ch while freeing up power from the AVR to run the other three (versus 5).

[Scrappydue]

If you're looking for a three first and then a 4 channel you will definitely have to go with separate brands or steer away from emotiva all together. There a few guys on here the xpa-5/2 combo and I'm sure they would tell you that those rf-83's will love every bit of that xpa-2. And doing that will free up power on your avr so it will power center better. Or if you want the front three powered that bad spend the extra 100 get the xpa-5 and run the front three for now or five if you want and get the xpa-2 down the line. Just my opinion. Cause you sound pretty set on at least 200 watts. That's how I was but when you look at other pricier brands they are 200 till they run more than one channel power stars going down. And if you get a higher one that bumps to two hundred all channels driven then your talking 3,000+ range. Emotiva is def best bang for your buck new for sure. And they have a pretty warm sound to them.

[tmassey]

Great advice Scrappy, and actually now that I am looking at the price, I think I have finally made up my mind. I think my best bet will be the XPA-5 now. I can bi-amp my fronts until I get surrounds. And later on when I start looking at rear surrounds, there should probably be plenty power coming out of the AVR since I am running the 2 fronts, center, and surrounds off the amp. And really, the XPA-5 retails for only 200$ more than the XPA-3. It's just a tad over my limit but I think will save me a lot of money in the long run. I'll put my order in as now I really cant wait to get my hands on it, and let you guys know what I think in about a week. If I really need more power for the 83s, it wouldn't be a problem to grab the XPA-2 and run everything else through the XPA-5

Again, can't express enough thanks for all the help you have all been.

[Scrappydue]

that's awesome man!! i am glad that i could some up my countless hours spent pondering about these amps and in which order i wanted them could be summed up in a few paragraphs. the xpa-5 will be great for you although i would say that you wont really need to bi-amp the fronts. i would just run all five of your speakers for now and run your 7.1's off the receiver then when you get the money down the road get the xpa-2 and voila! your up and running at full speed. plus it would be kind of a set back if you bi-amp them at 400 watts then go to the xpa-2 and back down to 300 watts. if you just run the 5 for all five channels for now, when you upgrade to the 2 at 300 watts it will be like xmas all over again!

either way that's awesome man you are gonna love it. hope you have a nice size shelf for it, cause it's a beast and very heavy!! and not sure if you want all black, but if you do just to let you know there are black trim pieces for it. i assumed they came with them. i can assure you they do not anymore if they ever did. you will have to order them.

let us know how you like it!!

[Scrappydue]

Also, not sure if yor a military man like myself, but emotiva gives a military discount.

[SuBXeRo]

emotiva is one of the few brands that offers the odd numbered 3 channel power amp which is pretty snazzy if you just want to really pump up your front 3. Outlaw specializes in the home theater style amplifiers and has built their model around using their model 2200 single channel amp as a way to fill the need for those who dont want 5 or 7 channels. My only gripe with that amp is that its a glass G amp that switch from a/b to g at higher wattages but then again i have never heard them in real life. The amp crosses over to class G at 80 watts is pretty decent to stick to class A/B. I'd be keen to give it a whirl and my guess is that with power like that on klipsch, i would assume the highers volume would make the finer nuances of what you were listening to less perceptable.

That XPA-5 will make you a ver happy person. It can really drive whatever you put to it. Make sure that you test it and listen clearly for the hum/buzz noise issue with no sound playing, just the amp being on. At least if you catch it within you trial period you can return it. I am praying you are part of the majority that don't have this issue! And as said above, you dont need to biamp. You won't notice a benefit from it unless you are playing so loud that your ears begin to bleed.

I may sound harsh against Emotiva but i was just very dissatisfied with the noise in my amp. I would purchase from emo again if i had excess cash and i would try the lower powered ultra line of amps. I have their subs and processor and i am very happy with the performance from both of them. Emotiva has done a lot of learning in the past few years especially with their procssors, hopefully they iron the kinks out and become a more rock solid company,

[tmassey]

No, I'm not in the military. I should be okay on the size but I should probably do some measuring just incase, might have to end up making myself a cabinet. Thanks for the heads up And thanks for the hum warning as well. Nothing worse than sitting down and watching a movie only to have a quiet scene come up and you are distracted by an annoying hum. Their return policy seems very customer friendly which gives me a little peace of mind.

[SuBXeRo]

it was pretty bad. It was hard to enjoy music at lower volumes because of it or just quiet dialogue in a movie. Their customer service is very good there, i will give them kudos to that because customer service is something very commonly kicked to the way side.