HDBRbuilder Posted June 6, 2002 Share Posted June 6, 2002 The original "loudness" circuitry was just a bass and high boost, with no provision for defeet unless it was turned off. The later versions were originally called "contour" because they contoured the curve upwards and downwards from the mid-frequencies in their boost of the bass and highs. The best of these "contour"/loudness control circuitries had an automatic gradual defeat built into the circuitry that kicked in as the volume was turned-up...eventually negating the "contour" effect to save wear and tear on speaker drivers from peaks!! I agree with MH, that the disappearance of the loudness/contour was done by the engineers at the manufacturers...but I, instead sincerely believe it was done in the days when all of those "pre-packaged" component systems were in their heyday. Because it was seen that those loudness controls that didn't automatically kick themselves out at higher volumes were damaging the speakers in those "pre-packaged" systems. And the companies who made them were tired of warranty repairs to those speakers. Because of some owner who just didn't know he/she was destroying the speakers by leaving the "loudness" control kicked in all of the time!! Generally the fault actually belonged to an owner who DIDN'T read his manual...or to one of his/her teen kids who just didn't care!!! My ex's teen-aged son was notorious for taking my stereo system and cranking the bass, mid, and treble controls all the way up on the receiver and then playing it at full volume....while not even in the living room with it!!...Until I would come in and see it!!...and chastise him severely!!...which of course led to my being chastised by his mother for yelling at him....just one of the reasons they all are on their own now!!!...good riddance, too!! No telling how many times I calmly sat him down and tried to explain to him what kind of damage his actions could cause my speakers...but he just didn't care...most teens don't!! Thank God that the receiver only put out continuous power rating of 32 watts rms!!! Or I would have been staring at some damaged components in lesser speakers than my Heresys, for sure!! I was at least wise enough to keep the "strapping-switch" on the back of the receiver a secret...if he had done that with 90 watts, there may have been some damage!!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted June 6, 2002 Share Posted June 6, 2002 a ** PROPERLY IMPLENTED ** loudness control can be very, very helpful when you're listening over a wide range of volume levels. Getting your system set so that the sound is accurate and balanced from deepest bass to highest treble at your typical listening level will just about insure that it will NOT sound right when you turn it down low, late at night when the kids are in bed. The problem with most loudness controls is that they were not implemented correctly. They just applied some fixed contouring of the low and high frequencies. Without nowing anything about the efficiency of your speakers or your listeing level, there was no way this contouring could be accurate. For a GOOD example of a PROPERLY IMPLEMENTED loudness control, check out the McIntosh C26 Stereo Preamplifier. The way this worked, you'd set the loudness control to a zero level, then use the volume control to set the volume to the loudest level you typically listened at. Then, to reduce the volume, you didn't use the volume control - you turned down the LOUDNESS control. As you reduced the volume from the reference setting by turning the loudness control, it applied an increasingly large amount of contouring to the bass and treble frequencies, following the published Fletcher-Munson findings. Worked very, very well. Given the digital widgets available today, I'm shocked, SHOCKED (with apologies to Louis Renault) to find that no proper loudness controls are included today. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System This message has been edited by Ray Garrison on 06-06-2002 at 12:00 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted June 6, 2002 Share Posted June 6, 2002 I have had several components with "loudness control" ( and still do with a Yamaha CR-800 and NAD residing in the closet and in relatives systems)and actually dont miss it, even when done correctly (Yamaha's 70s gear implementation was a pretty sophisticated circuit as well and did just what you outlined which had been covered in a previous post in this thread). It always brought about a slight thickening to the sound that might be pleasing but ultimately appeared unnatural to me. Actually, one of things I admire about my Cary -Cornwall-2A3 system is the excellent sound it gives at low listening levels, something that many amp-speaker combos have problems with. I would gladly do away with another control that is very sparingly used that when you ARE doing dedicated listening at normal volumes, should be completely out of circuit and only serves as one more component. Even having a switch in the path is unnecessary in this instance. I have found that people that live with very simple components almost NEVER go back to full featured ones. The only people that tend to argue these points are ones that still have this type of gear. Having lived with both, including an in-home recording studio with every imaginable component around, I can say that the transparency and closeness one feels to the performance is almost always increased with the removal of componentry from the circuit (with a few exceptions). Obviously, there is great debate here on this matter as many in this forum and elsewhere prefer the use of equalizers and other means of controlling tone and frequency. You might even question me concerning the EICO HF-81, which does have tone controls as wells as pretty full-featured switching capability. I would hastily add that the EICO exudes magic DESPITE this mess, and sounds even better with those tone pots out of the loop and even less switching. Just a deletion of the mediocre balance pot brought better sonics. Still, much of this is a matter of taste and priorities, and to make judgements one way or the other is really defining taste and experience. kh ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted June 6, 2002 Share Posted June 6, 2002 Ray G I totally agree with you about a proper loudness control and what it adds. I currently use a Mac C-36 that has a variable loudness contour. Generally I keep it flat, but on some recordings, say a 70 person choir recorded with an open mike, a little boost adds a lot to the experence. Before I got my Mac I had a NAD 1150 pre amp, that device just had a loudness button. My experience with that was with loudness on it was too much bass and with it off was too flat since the unit was not very dynamic. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted June 6, 2002 Share Posted June 6, 2002 What a bunch of malotky! heh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted June 6, 2002 Share Posted June 6, 2002 Ah, the debate between full-featured preamps and those with few or no functions! I use a McIntosh C-22 which has more features than you can shake a stick at. Do I use them? Sometimes. I have a lot of jazz 78s in pretty marginal condition--most not done on an RIAA curve- and I find that using tone controls and filters makes these records COME ALIVE. Without them I would be not be getting the COREECT information out of the grooves. I just got my vintage MONO 78 Ortofon MC back from being retipped and it sounds AWESOME! Teddy Edwards never sounded better on Dodo Maramrosa's "Up in Dodo's Room" on that Dial 78 this morning! This old, scuffed 78 sounds ten times better than the same cut on a CD I bought only 2-3 years ago! And I couldn't do it without the tone controls! I also find the mono-switch on the C-22 to be ESSENTIAL! Listening to mono LPs with a Stereo Cartridge and pre makes for REALLY noisy listening! Flip the mono switch and POOF! all the noise goes away like MAGIC! I can't believe that modern, mega-buck phono stages don't ALL have mono switches in them. Geeesh! When I listen to Stereo LPs or Compact Discs, I generally leave all of the controls flat. Maybe I'm not getting the BEST sound possible out of the gooves, but it sounds DAMN GOOD to me, and that is all that matters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whell Posted June 7, 2002 Author Share Posted June 7, 2002 Truly one of the things I love about this forum. Not only do questions get answered in spades, but sometimes the thread takes on a life of its own, and one gets more useful info than they bargained for. Thanks for the responses. ------------------ Mike - Livonia, MI Klipsch RF-3 L/R Klipsch RC-3 Center Klipsch RB-5 rears HSU Research VF-2 Sub Marantz SR-19EX receiver Marantz MM-9000 Amp NAD T550 DVD Adcom GCD 700 CD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobG Posted June 7, 2002 Share Posted June 7, 2002 Though "less is more" is certainly true among many quality brands, I think the real reason the loudness button has become extinct is cost cutting. Even quality manufacturers are challenged with profit concerns. If you study electronics over the years, you'll see that power transformers have shrunk, fewer output devices are used, smaller power supply capacitors, etc. And these deletions create 'real' performance shortcomings. Now that the majority of amps sold are multichannel, every feature than can be eliminated is eliminated. If for no other reason than internal real estate. Newer is not always better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curmudgeon Posted June 7, 2002 Share Posted June 7, 2002 Good answer, BobG! It's nice to hear the REAL reason instead of some watered-down response like other major manufacturers would give (after it having gone through "public relations" and focus groups). That was a no-bullsh*t answer like someone would have expected to hear from PWK himself. Party on, dude! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted June 7, 2002 Share Posted June 7, 2002 I want a bitching EQ/processor, does everything + more. ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted June 7, 2002 Share Posted June 7, 2002 "transformers have shrunk, fewer output devices are used, smaller power supply capacitors, etc." Oh really! I did not notice,all I know my amps are larger,subwoofers have more massive magnetic structures and output more,speakers are of better quality. Tell a Krell owner his transformers have shrunk Caps,like soda cans in my Celeste/MOON and in quantity. I dont see/hear any degradation Oh I see,I seeee the cheapo reciever.Yes this pile of j... well I agree.1uF capacitors and 50VA noisy transformer and output stage on a chip. Well just stay away from the El Cheapo lineup And some clowns say all ams sound the same! Go fugure TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumped Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 I agree with mdeneen - I think MOST people (adults at least) don't listen to their Klipsch's at super high levels all (or even MOST) of the time. I mean, I'm a homeowner in the San Diego area and my homeowners association would come after me in the night with torches and pitchforks, frankenstein-style, if I listened to my Heresys at 116db! Most of the time, I have my receiver at the number 2 spot, which isn't VERY loud, but it's COMFORTABLE. My old Proton receiver had a loudness button AND a bass EQ and those suckers worked miracles to the sound at lower levels. Yes, when I turned my proton up to 4 or more (on a volume scale of 1-10) then I would turn the loudness and bass EQ off. Unfortunately, like stated earlier, I listen to them between 1 and 2....sometimes 3 if i'm feeling rowdy (lol). My newer sony receiver doesn't have any loudness or bass EQ switches and I notice a HUGE difference at lower levels - my Heresys sound flatter to the point where you say "What the f... HAPPENED here?! This is the sound I get from my NEW receiver?!" Bring back the loudness switch I say!!!! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 This is almost like two different cultures from different Countries attempting to communicate from the same frame of reference. I believe it really is that different in a way. kh ------------------ Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.