whell Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 In the '70's and early '80's, I was changing out and upgrading stereo equipment faster than some folks change their underwear. One feature that was fairly common on the integrated amps and receivers of that period was the "loudness contour" button, or simply, "loudness". In practice, as you all know, the loudness contour goosed the low frequency of the source signal (for a variety of possible reasons: compensate for loss of bass at low listening levels in less efficient speakers being the leading reason that I recall). In recent years, the loudness button seems to have disappeared from better receivers and integrated amps. Why is this? It can't be because amplifier design has gotten better, can it? (Seems like it has in many cases gotten worse!) Thanks for setting me straight on this. ------------------ Mike - Livonia, MI Klipsch RF-3 L/R Klipsch RC-3 Center Klipsch RB-5 rears HSU Research VF-2 Sub Marantz SR-19EX receiver Marantz MM-9000 Amp NAD T550 DVD Adcom GCD 700 CD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 they changed it to 'SVS' ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 No they chaned it to EQ in The receiver and a SVS ULtra. ------------------ go forth & hump the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 The loudness contour could actually be useful. I had a Lux integrated in the '70's that had a loudness contour that decreased as you turned up the volume. With the Rectilinear IV speakers I had at the time (well, actually still have in the garage), it matched very nicely. I suspect it has gone the way of bass/treble controls on serious gear...off with the prejudices of the golden ear. As long as you can bypass them completely, I say bring'em on. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 I predict that it will return much the same way as tube based amplifiers have become discovered again. Everything goes in a circle - pretty soon 80's clothes will be in style again such as military fatigues and purple mowhaks and leather jackets with at least 20 zippers ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 I blame it on the government... Anyway, I blame it on audiophiles, and it eventually was pulled off of all but the cheapest audio equiptment. The LOUDNESS button is great for showing off yout system to people who are not "into audio" because you can blow them away with some REAL noise. ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curmudgeon Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 The older Yamaha receivers and (I think) some of their preamps had something called "Continously Variable Loudness" that had almost infinite adjustment. The loudness control could be switched off or on, and between the volume and loudness pots you could quickly dial in whatever level of bass/treble boost you liked. It may not have been "audiophile" but it was very useful where speaker setup was limited or when you dragged the system over to someone else's house for a party. Also good for doing background music that you didn't want to sound "tinny" or "thumping". Nowadays its more in vogue to spend stupid money on equipment and compromise your furnishings for optimum speaker placement than to risk letting any measure of distortion creep into your tunes. The loudness control is kinda like a CD - compromised sound but extremely convenient. Just remember: if its not straight wire with gain then it must suck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 my old '75 Big ken receiver has a loudness rocker switch for no loudness, loudness 1 (louder) & loudness 2 (real loud). pretty spiffy eh? ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 md, i always thought the real purpose of the "loudness" switch was to get more bass at lower volumes. & my big ken has a midrange knob too, in addition to bass & treble. too bad i never use it as it also has a tone control defeat switch. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 Good ridance,the loudness button was only good at lower volumes where speakers needed some bass and highs boost. Its unfortunate many had the loudness activated most of the time and to top it all had the EQ set to smiley face! A grotesque way to toast tweeters and torture the woofers,and make the cheapo amp clip. No real serious system needs any stinking LOUDNESS button.All you need is Volume and in some cases BALANCE. Only ghetto whoopers need tone controls and the infamous loudness button.High class bass freaks use quality subwoofers by the dozen like me. I no need no stinking loudness button.Give me MORE SUBWOOFERS and I am A ok. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 I had a Yamaha AX-592 Integrated with 'Variable Loudness Control' I would just turn it wide open and forgot about it. Jesus Christ Ear! Ain't you deaf yet?! This message has been edited by mike stehr on 06-05-2002 at 07:34 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curmudgeon Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 I wonder if all those subwoofers have the same effect as leaning against the washing machine while it's running? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 Interesting. As opposed to most threads, I can think of nothing that has not been already covered in regards to loudness controls. What they did, how they were designed, what happened to them, and what the attitudes towards them were and are. Fletcher-Munson was not just a good idea. It's the LAW. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 I think the loudness button went away because it could never be right due to differing speaker efficiencies. I never used the button/switch type because it was always too much for the speakers I had. My old Yamaha integrated amp had a variable loudness control. You were supposed to set the volume control at a loud level and then use the variable loudness knob to reduce the volume from your preset level. It was a good system and with my speakers some of the positions of the loudness pot were spot on. Most had a little too much or too little compensation. By adjusting the loudness and volume knobs you could always find a setting that gave a pleasing result. Given the choice, I would like to have such a control again. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 "If you listen to your rig at full-on, full-tilt volume ALL the time, then true enough, you don't need no stinkin' loudness contour. But who does that?" ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 TheEAR is the best snob on the entire forum! ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 HMMMMM I never knew they got rid of them... Then again - My newest piece of listening equipment is 15 years old.. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted June 6, 2002 Share Posted June 6, 2002 Interestingly the loudness button is still a feature on Accupase integrated amplifiers. In the manual they are very clear that this is for use only at lower listening levels and is there to compensate for the listener's ear being unable to pick up audio spectrum extremes as the volume drops - or some such thing. Personally I was never a great fan and I think it died out of common use simply as a result of the preponderance of sub-woofers that effectively made it redundant - SVS or otherwise. ------------------ My System: http://aca.gr/pop_maxg.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted June 6, 2002 Share Posted June 6, 2002 Where did the loudness button go? As with most devices of this nature, the best ones served their purpose for what they were designed for, to compensate for low lisening levels just as mentioned in previous posts. At the volume increased, the use of the loudness control was not needed. It was a useful feature at times and early Yahamha units actually put a lot of thought into the design of their use of this control as it was variable. On some brands, it would back out of the circuit after it became less needed. But as with most of these type controls, they were abused within mediocre designs and when done poorly, as was the case in a good percentage, were detrimental to the sonics of the amp. To be honest, the absence of filters, loudness, tone controls, etc has been a blessing in many ways as more often then not, unless designed with the highest attention to detail and quality, they imparted more of negative impact regarding the resolution and openness of the gear. "Audiophiles" really dont deserve the credit here as most of engineers for many top notch companies (some exclusions of course) noted that as more componentry and gimmickry were REMOVED from the circuit, the less effect on the signal. Resolution was increased. Detail was increased. There was less haze and noise. There was a move from more and more bells and whistles with built in equalizers, tone controls, loudness buttons, bass boost, HI-pass filters etc to the bare essentials of source selection, volume control, and balance. Stereo and Mono switching was a hold out and absolute phase became available on some. The infrasonic filter was one device that was particularly useful with vinyl playback but since vinyl was disappearing, that also went to the wayside. What have I discovered? While it is nice to have these controls at times, I have found the more I remove from the circuit, the better the sound. Once your system and playback chain goes beyond a certain point, all these things seem to add up, to the point where I have now abolished the use of volume pots in favor of attenuators with a single resistor per volume setting. I have also gotten rid of the balance pot on all my preamps, just leaving SOURCE and Attenuation as the extent of the controls. IS this audiophile-itis? I dont think so. When I removed the Noble volume pot (a damn good pot, too) and replaced it with the TKD Stepped Attenuator, I got a noticable increase in resolution, detail, a reduction in the noise floor w/ blacker background. It was WORTH the ducats. When I removed the balance, it went up another notch. Granted, some systems benefit from more flexibility in controls. It has just been my experience that the more I can remove the superfluous from the signal, the better the sonics. kh ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whell Posted June 6, 2002 Author Share Posted June 6, 2002 I use an old Yamaha integrated amp in my office set up (an old CA 810, which is in such great condition that it should be a museum piece!) with the variable loudness feature that other posters have described. It really is a bonus in my set up, since I do most of my office listening at low volumes (I've got 8 co workers outside my door, not all who share my taste in music, so the volume stays down most of the time). It is such a joy to be able to have good sounding music at lower volumes. I tried a newer amp/preamp combo, and playing with the bass and treble never seemed to yield the right sound. The Yamaha gets it spot-on, with a little help from the variable loudness. Which, by the way, has a "Flat" setting to bypass the circuit completely. ------------------ Mike - Livonia, MI Klipsch RF-3 L/R Klipsch RC-3 Center Klipsch RB-5 rears HSU Research VF-2 Sub Marantz SR-19EX receiver Marantz MM-9000 Amp NAD T550 DVD Adcom GCD 700 CD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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