tube pre amp

[sasqwatch]

I'm New to this hobby,and was wondering if I use a tube pre amp with a solid state amp would the sound be comparable to a integrated tube amp if so any recommendation on pre amp will be used with k horns .budget would be around 500$ thanks in advance for any advice.

[Daddy Dee]

sasqwatch,

conventional wisdom with tubes and SS is that more quality tube sound is obtained with a tube pre amp and SS power amp than the other way around.

I think that's true in my observation.

the various and sundry combinations all seem to have their own kind of synergy. Some combinations sound fabulous, better than one would think, and others aren't enhanced by the particular configuration of gear.

i think a tube pre and ss power amp can be a very good combination.

[sasqwatch]

Thanks daddy dee, I'm currently switching between ss pre, tube amp combo and a ss pre ,ss amp combo they both sound good to me .If i understand correctly I would get a fuller tube sound using a tube pre amp with either amp. I realize what sounds good to one individual isn't true for everyone.With that in mind ,there must be some Merritt to the majority consensus of a quality tube pre.With the vast combined experience of the members here is there any particular pre amp that gets a consistently good review. Stacy

[Deang]

Be careful.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/15052/116611.aspx#116611

[sasqwatch]

Be careful.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/15052/116611.aspx#116611

thanks Dean ,You probably saved me a costly mistake.I'm really enjoying the k horns,the more I listen the better they sound if thats possible.

[erik2A3]

Sasquatch: do investigate this possibility before shying away from or diving into a decision. There are quite a few valve (tube) based linestage preamplifiers that would have a very friendly output/input impedance relationship. The usual ball park figure is a ratio of 1-10, with the input impedance of the amp being ten times that of the output impedance of the device in front of it. I have built several line stages from scratch using common inexpensive tubes such as the 12au7 and 6sn7, and all of them worked fine with our solid state amps -- as mentioned by Dee above, it can make for some very nice listening.

Though offered as a kit preamp, of which I have made several for others, is the Transcendent Sound Grounded Grid (see link below). The second preamp from this OTL amplifier company and an extremely good design for clarity, detail, and presence. It's been discussed a number of times on this forum over the years -- in fact the majority of the ones I put together were for Klipsch Heritage speaker owners. It has an outstanding outut impedance spec. Moreover, it's dead quiet, which is important when you've got 104dB/1 watt speakers waiting down the line. The company's first preamp was published years ago -- 1991 I think, and was at that time the first scratch- built preamp I made. It was also a tubed linestage, and was set up for dual output impedances, one high and one low.

A superb preamp that essentially provides gain with very little coloration -- all for a very fair price. They show up on audiogon sometimes, too. There are a number of tube preamps that work outstandingly well with SS amps; I use this one as an example because I know it very well.

It's true one needs to take care when looking at impedance relationships between components, but there are plenty of options that render that concern far less significant. By the way, volume controls absolutely DO alter frequency repsonse, particulalrly when turned down. An old trick that can subjectively improve that is a high pass filter between the input and output of the volume control. It's a guitar amp mod that can work really well on hi Fi amps too; a small value capacitor (say 50-200 pfd). Very easy to install with a little soldering practice.

Anyway, here's the link: http://www.transcendentsound.com/Transcendent/Transcendent_Sound_Grounded_Grid_Preamp.html

[erik2A3]

Just for the record: I have no affiliation whatever with Transcendent Sound. Nor am I building for others at this time.

[Cornman]

What Erik said [Y]. I have also had great success mixing tube & ss gear. Try it.

Good luck, Cornman

[The Dude]

I am mixing a Tubes4hifi vacuum tube audio sp6 I don't know what the output impedance is but I am running it into a McIntosh MC2505 and I think it sounds pretty dang good.

[erik2A3]

Further: Another possibility for experimenting with tubes in front of your transistor amp is a simple buffer. The earlier forum link mentioned buffering between stages, which simply means improving the interstage impedance elements -- such as a with a unity gain cathode follower. I am reminded of one company that offers great tube gear, and believe they also have a buffer stage. They share design notes, which can make for some educational reding,and I'll post a link for you after I double check this.

[erik2A3]

Buffer stage example from Decware: http://www.decware.com/newsite/zbox.htm

[erik2A3]

Or for that matter, and a last link from me -- linestage preamp/headphone amp. Output impedance around 60 ohms, which is very low indeed. http://www.decware.com/newsite/CSP2.html

[sasqwatch]

Thanks erIk2a3 for taking the time to share your experience,and the link.I have not give up on the notion of a tube pre and ss amp,I have come to the conclusion I need to further my education.all the info is truly appreciated.

[The Dude]

I say thanks to erik as well as he has given me new ideas I have been the decware site before been never explored it as I did tonight.

[kaiser SET say]

I know I'm happy as a clam with my tube pre ss amp configuration but as you said we each hear things differently.

[erik2A3]

Sure. What was said about hearing preferences is so true. I mentioned the classic cathode follower, which has been used forever -- but I know from personal experience that some people (which I think includes me depending on my mood), don't care for them. It's a classic circuit, but just another among hundreds that is going to differ in terms of 'good' or 'bad' sound quality depending on who you're talking to.. One person's "too bright or detailed" is someone else's idea of "just right." Etc., etc, etc., etc.....

[erik2A3]

And then when you find what for you is THE right preamp, you can....ahem.....enjoy rolling tube brands and suitable replacements to tweak to your own best liking (which will probably change from time-to-time ....). And this is where you can begin to go over the edge with tube rolling (or some other 'part'). But that's part of the fun! I don't seem to be doing so much of that anymore, but have been having a blast rebuilding some very special old amplifiers. I have both looked-at and repaired some foreign designs, a few out of the Far East (Prima Lunamis built there though designed in the West) and some of them are built, like a Prima Luna gear (I also own a Prima Luna preamp) not just well but exceedingly so. I have also reworked a few amp circuits that were constructed, IMO, not nearly so well.

[sasqwatch]

Erik , I checked out the decware site pretty cool.it was definitely educational.do you have any experience using there buffer or gain stage device.

[erik2A3]

Sasquatch: personally no. I pointed that out as an available example. I do own the fabulous Decware Mini Torii integrated amp -- so well put together, and among the single best sounding amplifiers I have ever used with Heresies. Great on our La Scalas too, but there was just some real synergy with that amp and Heresies. Decware has a very active and comprehensive forum, though, and I would urge you, if you might be interested, to participate and ask questions there. Steve Deckert is also a really fine person; the whole company is like that. Also, if you don't need the extra gain of an active linestage preamp, the z box might be something to consider....as a way to experiment with tubes. A little gain doesn't hurt either, so there are many options now. Dean's comment about impedance matching is spot-on -- it's among the more important things to consider when matching components, whether speakers and amps or preamps and amps. I wanted to contribute to help encourage some confidence in the current availability and suitability of the often really, really nice partnering of tubes and transistors.

[erik2A3]

Sasquatch: there are also companies that have taken the advantage of a hollow state front end and tight low end response, high power, and control of a solid state output stage coupled to the loudspeakers -- all in one package. One company that comes to mind as far as this toplogy is Vincent. I mention this just for the sake of interest: Vincent SP-331. A power amp, though, which would need either a low output Impedance passive attenuator or an linestage preamp.