Heritage_Head Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Btw, Here is a write up on Popalock's AVS Forum Home Theater of the month and he posted his impressions about adding an external amp which he evidently didn't think benefited him either on the Klipsch Owners Thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1484131/home-theater-of-the-month-popalocks-bassment-big-screen-bigger-subs "Powered directly by a Pioneer Elite SC-57 AVR the 4.1 configuration had dynamic range to spare and pulled off visceral displays of raw powercrucial when so much bass power is on tap. It is a good thing Klipsch makes relatively efficient speakers; the SC-57 is a stout receiver, but some of the peak levels we achieved that evening were off the chart. The main front speakersa pair of Klipsch RF-7 IIsplayed the part of monstrous satellites, crossed over at 80Hz despite nothing about them being "small," while a pair of Klipsch RS-62s handled the surround sound duties with aplomb." Post 71 of that thread: An LCR upgrade is on the radar. Primarily because I need something with a more slim profile given the RF-7II's are rear ported and 18" deep. The Noesis 212's are callin my name!!! Just gotta wait for the right timing with the wifey. That being said, I still enjoy the RF-7II's tremendously. Mark brought his Crown amp with him during his visit and we hooked it up just to see how the RF-7II's would fare with proper juice. I must say... With an external amp they exceeded what I thought they were capable of. I couldn't imagine any HT store attempting to even come close to what they can really do on the showroom if you asked for a demo. I forget what amp Mark brought. IIRC it was an XTi series. Maybe a XTi1002? Regarding max output @ 10Hz... I haven't tried it yet. I'll try to get around to it sometime soon and post measurements on my build thread. Thanks tasdom i was just about to go look for that post you beat me to it. Avr good power amp even better thats science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 The Pioneer SC 57 can swing around 300 watts into a 4 ohm load which is impressive for an avr. Running the 7's as small only increases the headroom of the avr and is good power management to boot. The systems on this forum are very high powered thanks to the efficiency of Klipsch speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Read all the posts of people on this thread that went from an avr to a power amp. They say more detail more punch better bass cleaner sound and on and on. When something can supply power better its science. A 85lb pound block of power supplies power better that a 38lb pound avr. Better = better thats science. As i have said in your really small room you probably don't need one. But i think when everyone says the amp sounds better it probably does. So if you had one your system would probably sound better. Why i it so hard to believe when just about everyone who owns an amp says it to be true? Your answer isn't scientific and every single person you mentioned had a lower end AVR driving their system before adding the amps. I have no desire to pursue this anymore than I have and as long as you enjoy your Home Theater I am not going to try and change your opinion...I will also add that people who want to buy amps are going to and I have yet to read about anyone doing any level-matching experiments to decide if it added anything at the volume they were accustomed to listening. That said and as mentioned, there are others with the same AVR I have who posted on the Klipsch Owners Thread and they share my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Again getting to reference level is not the point. It's how it sounds at that level that an avr can't match. Getting to Reference level is the point under THX criteria. Low distortion quick power swings and hit the max 105 db and 115 db for the speaker and sub is a tall order for most systems, especially non-Klipsch system. This takes power. A system may be ask to hit 122 db wirh redirected bass, That is asking a lot. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Thanks tasdom i was just about to go look for that post you beat me to it. Avr good power amp even better thats science. We discussed that on the Klipsch Owners Thread and he said that was when they were playing music and running the RF-7IIs as Large. When they set the speakers to Small and crossed them over to those Amazing subs, the AVR alone was enough to power the system to evidently insane levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Thanks tasdom i was just about to go look for that post you beat me to it. Avr good power amp even better thats science. We discussed that on the Klipsch Owners Thread and he said that was when they were playing music and running the RF-7IIs as Large. That doesn't even make sense. Better is better. Large or small better is better. You have no argument I'm sorry . The facts have spoken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I feel like i have already posted this but. A flagship avr will do a nice job and power everything just fine to reference levels. Good amps just do it better and sound better because of it. Not sure how that can be debated. How many people buy amps then return them because they cant tell a difference. Maybe .001%. That says it all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 ...Running the 7's as small only increases the headroom of the avr and is good power management to boot. The systems on this forum are very high powered thanks to the efficiency of Klipsch speakers. will also give you a +1 one for this comment and will state that my Denon AVR-4311 drives my Home Theater to THX Reference levels and don't wish to go any louder....Gotta go listen to some tunes! [8] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 That doesn't even make sense. Better is better. Large or small better is better. You have no argument I'm sorry . The facts have spoken. You say it doesn't make a difference but I will let others share why running the Speakers as Large vs Small does matter and is why I pursued it on the Klipsch Owners thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 That doesn't even make sense. Better is better. Large or small better is better. You have no argument I'm sorry . The facts have spoken. You say it doesn't make a difference but others may share why running the Speakers as Large vs Small does matter and is why I pursued it on the Klipsch Owners thread. It makes a difference and it supports what I'm saying. The amp is better and thats my only point. If its better running them large then its definitely better running them small. my post never says it doesn't make a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 If you think the denon is as good as a big power amp. Then by all means .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 It makes a difference and it supports what I'm saying. The amp is better and thats my only point. If its better running them large then its definitely better running them small. That's not true. Do some research on why it's better to run any speaker as small and providing a crossover point. Fwiw and getting back to the discussion on the Klipsch Owners Thread, they were talking about the lower frequencies sounding better than expected when the RF-7s were set to Large, which are crossed over to the subs when running them as Small. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 It makes a difference and it supports what I'm saying. The amp is better and thats my only point. If its better running them large then its definitely better running them small. my post never says it doesn't make a difference. I would certainly agree a seperate, more powerful amp is going to be better than just running it straight from an AVR. Just like I would expect a Corvette to be faster and perform better than my Ford Fusion. However, the Fusion has plenty of power and performs plenty good enough for what I need a car for. Just the same case with 'tdkamerica'. Would using a seperate amp give him better performance than using just powering straight from his reciever? Physics would definitly say yes, and it certainly was the case for me. However, his more current Denon 4000 series AVR is a whole step up from my fairly ancient Denon 3000 series AVR. Also, as he already indicated, he is very happy with the performance and sound that he is getting from his rig and does not want to spend the money and effort to add an outboard amp. In my case, I did not mind spending the money, and cannot be happier. I am about to spend some more money to get a top-of-the-line Marantz pre-pro to replace my ageing Denon AVR3802 reciever. Some people will think that I am just going to be wasting money and don't need something that big and fancy, but hey, I got the money, and I friggan want it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Your stuck zen, I mean you have no personal experience in this matter. Your only guessing. Go get an amp put it in your system and then you can argue your side if you still want to. If someone said the rf-7 did not sound any better than the speakers they have but never even heard an rf-7 would that make any sense? And thats your side of this. You haven't even heard one in your system to compare. You choice to only hear what you want. But yet you wont hear the majority that say its Its better. Im having a one sided debate about something i have experience with. With someone who does not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 It makes a difference and it supports what I'm saying. The amp is better and thats my only point. If its better running them large then its definitely better running them small. my post never says it doesn't make a difference. I would certainly agree a seperate, more powerful amp is going to be better than just running it straight from an AVR. Just like I would expect a Corvette to be faster and perform better than my Ford Fusion. However, the Fusion has plenty of power and performs plenty good enough for what I need a car for. Just the same case with 'tdkamerica'. Would using a seperate amp give him better performance than using just powering straight from his reciever? Physics would definitly say yes, and it certainly was the case. However, his more current Denon 4000 series AVR is a whole step up from my fairly ancient Denon 3000 series AVR. Also, as he already indicated, he is very happy with the performance and sound that he is getting from his rig and does not want to spend the money and effort to add an outboard amp. In my case, I did not mind spending the money, and cannot be happier. I am about to spend some more money to get a top-of-the-line Marantz pre-pro to replace my ageing Denon AVR3802 reciever. Some people will think that I am just going to be wasting money and don't need something that big and fancy, but hey, I got the money, and I friggan want it! I agree 100%. If he's happy thats all that matters. I was also very happy when i ran just an avr. Do you still have your B&K 200.7? i love mine. The sound is really clean and refined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I have been to an amp comparison held by AVS and while some speakers need them and other do not, I personally feel that if I spend 5,000 on speakers. Why not spend another 1,000 and give them good clean power. They love it wether they need it or not. I can say when I had my rf-63 home theater I thought my avr sounded great even up to reference volumes in a 10x10 room. Once I added the amp I thought it sounded a little better. But a few months down the line when it came time to leave California I packed non essentials first. Amp got packed. Avr got put back in the line. Holy smokes what a difference. Same room same setup as before. Just about every thing I played through it just sounded strained at reference levels. I will NEVER be without an amp again. Even in that little 10x10 room it was so much more effortless. And to me Effortless=clean sound. That's why the PB-13 ultras just left my setup. Although they are monsters, a 13 inch driver just doesn't move the air as easily as 18" drivers. My 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Pretty much spot on scappy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I agree 100%. If he's happy thats all that matters. I was also very happy when i ran just an avr. Do you still have your B&K 200.7? i love mine. The sound is really clean and refined. Oh hell, yeah! I do indeed still have mine, and I friggan love it. You are correct that it does have a really clean and refined sound. I almost dare to say "tube-like", especially since within the first few watts (I forget at what threshold), the thing is running in pure Class A mode. I've listened to some really nice tube-based rigs with KHorns and other large Heritage speakers, and as impressive as they sounded, I still found myself still in awe at what my RF-7s with B&K 200.7 is capable of doing. As I said in that prior post, I am giving serious considering of replacing my aging Denon AVR3802 that I am still currently using with a top-of-the-line Marantz AV8802 pre/pro. I am going to see if I can talk the local dealer down from the $3,500 asking price, though. I honostly think that will take my rig up to the next level, plus that thing supports all the latest codecs, not only that, it is also 4K ready and other such future standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 You will love the hd audio formats. Have you looked online for prices? Or even used is an amazing value. A pre pro that nice I bet the person would take good care of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 You will love the hd audio formats. Have you looked online for prices? Or even used is an amazing value. A pre pro that nice I bet the person would take good care of it. I did look online, but for something that expensive, I just feel more comfortable dealing locally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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