001 Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) hi. i have a pair of mid 90's k-horns & am very happy with them overall. however... i do feel the mids are a bit over powering at higher volume levels on most my cllassic rock cd's & lp's. & i'm not alone in that general opinion from what i've been reading, many others have made the same observation. so, without getting into all the possible things that may be causing this like my s/s gear, room limitations etc, i'd like to know if the ak-3 x-overs can be modified to just simply drop the mids a few db? the ak-3 are fully soldered & different from other k-horn x-overs from what i have heard & read. im hoping to be able to add a simple part (cap, filter, resistor etc) in the proper location without degrading the overall sound. aside from the other outside contributors to the problem, that i will adress down the road, i'm just trying to see if there is a relatively simple way to drop the mids a few db's to make the speaker be a little more "balanced." i own or have owned many other klipsch speakers as well as a few other brands, & they are just so much more pleasant & "easier" to listn to than the k-horns. as far as i know there is nothing wrong wth the speaker themselves or the x-overs. these were bought from the original owner & the guy only listened to classical & jazz & i dont think he ever pushed them. they look like new. i have heard other k-horns & la scallas & they were all just so bright & overwhelming in the mid section when played at above average volumes. thanks in advance Edited March 14, 2014 by klipschfancf4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 The autotransformers in the AK-3 don't allow for adjustments in attenuation, so you will need a new pair, which you can buy from me. Based on your preferred listening levels, you should probably take another 3dB off. In conjunction with the new autotransformers, you will need two new 6.8uF capacitors. You will use these to replace the 13uF capacitors that are currently in the networks. The 13uF capacitor is connected to input positive on the barrier strip and connects directly to the autotransformer. So: replace the autotransformers, and change out two capacitors. Though the tweeter doesn't come off of the autotransformer, I can't remember how many connections Klipsch has on the common tap (0). I wouldn't bother with desoldering the connections off of the autotransformer, but cutting them. Then strip back the insulation to clean wire (not green if possible), and soldering to the new autotransformer taps. Someone who has actually done this before might come in with some additional pointers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
001 Posted March 14, 2014 Author Share Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) thanks for the info dean, just what i was hoping to hear. i'm pretty good with soldering so it sounds like something i should be able to do. i'm happy with the tweeter sound as i dont think it contributes to the overwhelming mids. 3db sounds about right on the mids. curious if an EQ would accomplish lowering the db at the mid freq without hurting the overall sound quality? so are the auto transformers from you adjustable? meaning i could choose how much of a db cut i want, or is it a pre set amount? also, will the 6.8uf cap change the freq cut off compared to the 13uf? & is it a "better" cap than the stock one? whats the reason for the cap change, in simple terms? i will PM you for info on the parts when i'm ready to attempt the change. thanks again! Edited March 14, 2014 by klipschfancf4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 I forgot, there is no barrier strip on the AK-3, but I think you caught my meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Careful Dean, you're bordering on being helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Well, he will need a little help, but just a little. We should be able to keep it within this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 I have Private Messaging turned off, and I prefer to keep everything in this thread. No, you won't be able to continually adjust. The 3dB cut will be fixed. The capacitor change is required because the tap change also changes the reflected impedance seen by the amp - so to keep the crossover point the same, the cap value is cut in half. I wasn't going to sell you any caps, I was just letting you know that I had the autotransformers if you decided to go through with this. I can certainly make a recommendation and point you in the right direction though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
001 Posted March 14, 2014 Author Share Posted March 14, 2014 ok, thanks for the clarification. im fine with keeping everything in the thread, might help others out that want to do this too. can you tell me which transformers i need & the prices from you? then suggest what brand/type caps are the best value. preferably something a tad "better" than the stock ones. & while im at it would a change to the tweeter caps be any benefit to the sound? might as well update whatever i can due to teh age thing i read about. they are at that magic 20 years old after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) Just for the heck of it, I recommend you consider getting AK-4 network kits. They were a revelation in the evolution of my 1962 K-horns, greatly increasing the smoothness and blend of the K-horns's drivers and horns, close-up and at a distance. JMHO. Dean has great knowledge of all this, though, so you're in good hands IMO. So there's my $0.02. Wish you could drop by. I don't recall where you live, but perhaps there are AK-4 owners near you. Larry Edited March 14, 2014 by LarryC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
001 Posted March 14, 2014 Author Share Posted March 14, 2014 Just for the heck of it, I recommend you consider getting AK-4 network kits. They were a revelation in the evolution of my 1962 K-horns, greatly increasing the smoothness and blend of the K-horns's drivers and horns, close-up and at a distance. JMHO. Dean has great knowledge of all this, though, so you're in good hands IMO. So there's my $0.02. Wish you could drop by. I don't recall where you live, but perhaps there are AK-4 owners near you. Larry great idea, however for now, i'm just trying to see the easiest/cheapest way to adjust the mids. i think if this idea works it will cure 90% of what i dont like about the k-horns. the ak-4's are probably pretty expensive. my audio budget is pretty tight after buying the k-horns & with my other hobbies that will pick back up with the nicer weather. i usually go into audio mode during the winter. i'm in central iowa, dont think there are too many members here in that area, or at least not with k-horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axz Hout Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 c 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 lol, that's true - he could change the capacitors everytime he wanted to try a different level of attentuation. Over time, you just tend to get a feel for what people need to get where they want to be. He listens kind of loud, and 6dB down seems to be what works best for that. I mean, you can only attenuate so much before it just becomes plain wrong. Attenuating and changing out all of the capacitors will smooth things out, but most of the harshness is from the horn. No one likes to hear that, but it is what it is. The narrow throat just overloads and everyting comes out garbled at high volume levels. I think you'll be surprised at the amount of improvement you'll get just with the 3dB drop and $25 worth of caps. WARNING: you'll be soldering that very heavy gauge wire onto some very thin leads, so get out your hemostats, alligator clips, or whatever you have for heat sinking. You will need six of these: http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pmpc-20-20uf-250v-precision-audio-capacitor--027-214 And two of these: http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pmpc-68-68uf-250v-precision-audio-capacitor--027-238 I usually bypass these caps with film and foils. No one here except maybe two or three accept the practice. However, I say if experts in the field disagree (conflicting authorities), then this leaves the possibility of improvement, and if the investment is relatively small -- then why not? This is the same position I'm taking on the DC biasing of capacitors in crossovers. These are very high quality for very little money. Again, make sure to protect the capacitors by heat sinking: http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dffc-010-010uf-400v-by-pass-capacitor--027-452 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axz Hout Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) I stand corrected -- we are going for a 2dB drop. Parts Express sells a 5.1uF, maybe just in case? Does anyone here think that the 5mH choke in parallel with the driver might be a problem? Edited March 14, 2014 by DeanG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) Just for the heck of it, I recommend you consider getting AK-4 network kits. They were a revelation in the evolution of my 1962 K-horns, greatly increasing the smoothness and blend of the K-horns's drivers and horns, close-up and at a distance. JMHO. Dean has great knowledge of all this, though, so you're in good hands IMO. So there's my $0.02. Wish you could drop by. I don't recall where you live, but perhaps there are AK-4 owners near you. Larry great idea, however for now, i'm just trying to see the easiest/cheapest way to adjust the mids. i think if this idea works it will cure 90% of what i dont like about the k-horns. the ak-4's are probably pretty expensive. my audio budget is pretty tight after buying the k-horns & with my other hobbies that will pick back up with the nicer weather. i usually go into audio mode during the winter. i'm in central iowa, dont think there are too many members here in that area, or at least not with k-horns. I have a set of '89 AK-2's I just removed from my horns in-case you don't want to spend money on the 3's you have. Dean can confirm, but I believe the only difference is the mids are 2-3db lower with the AK-2's than the AK-3's. Of course I will send the bass caps needed with them as well. I will swap you straight across, the 2's for the 3's. Can post pics if needed. If you're not interested, Im going to list them in the Garage section. I failed to mention that I really don't need the AK-3's, but my AK-2's are just sitting in boxes now thanks to Dean. Before you actually spend money on the 3's, PM Dean. Full adjustability of the mid is very nice in tailor fitting your sound. This design is more on clarity than any of the AK series and you can certainly hear the difference. Oh, and they look as good as they sound even though I didn't go with ubermoney components. Edited March 14, 2014 by Max2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 That would certainly uncomplicate things. It's a good idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axz Hout Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 x 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 The inductance of the autotransformer is so high, it can be treated as a non-factor. So what you have is a cap and coil, so it's 12db/octave. Using a Bessel alignment and 13 ohms, I can get real close to the stock values. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
001 Posted March 15, 2014 Author Share Posted March 15, 2014 ok lets keep this simple for the uneducated folks like myself. sorry but i cant follow the discussions above. so the links dean posted are not what i want? is there a change of opinion on the best way to get an extra 2 or 3 db reduction of the mids? i would prefer to just add caps as "mach-1" mentioned if thats teh easiest way. max-2: i appreciate the offer but i think i'd like to keep the stock ak-3's incase i ever want to go back to original. i may be interested ion your ak-2's if the pirce is right... remeber i'm on a pretty tight budget so you might get top dollar posting them here or ebay. PM me details if you want. on a side note, i have read that for the ak series x-overs the 3's are supposed to be the "better" sounding ones. aside from the 4 or 5's. so the differences between the 2 & 3's is just 2 or 3 db's in the mids? wonder why they increased the 3's so much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axz Hout Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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