mustang guy Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 I have no idea how to use the delay properly, I see it is simple to function but; I don't know the math or what to look for... That doesn't matter. Just put a delay in one of the speakers. Then measure and see... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Sound travels at 1.125 ft per millisecond. You will not perceive a difference in timing setting these delays. Just start with 1 ms, and keep changing it until the comb filtering is gone. I really wish you were using REW. That would make this easier for sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted March 16, 2014 Author Share Posted March 16, 2014 I am using REW!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Oh. Sorry if I didn't catch that before. Is your computer going to be the processor/EQ and the Yammy the crossover, or are you setting up the Yammy to act alone? Where is the phase plot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted March 16, 2014 Author Share Posted March 16, 2014 The Yamaha is act alone, lap top is just for REW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 You really need to show an "SPL & Phase Plot" from your LP. That will help a lot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted March 16, 2014 Author Share Posted March 16, 2014 (edited) Ok here ya go. one flat without subs and one with subs. Edited March 16, 2014 by canyonman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 (edited) Wow. That's a mess! Can you show the khorns only frequencies from 35Hz to 200Hz? Also, if the Phase in top portion and frequency in bottom? edit: And no smoothing. Edited March 16, 2014 by mustang guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Effster Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 I don't want to hi-jack canyonmans thread here,but here are some shots from today.My sub is only connected for HT use,not 2 channel where the sweeps are taken.The room is 18wx28dx7h.Khorns on 18' wall.I do not have tone controls on the aragon preamp,so it is interesting how flat and lifeless the music sounded before.This is some learning curve as to what measures right and what "sounds" right.I wish I had more time today to test,but everyone is home now and the house is no longer quiet enough.Let me know what you think guys.Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 (edited) ... Khorns on 18' wall.I do not have tone controls on the aragon preamp,so it is interesting how flat and lifeless the music sounded before.This is some learning curve as to what measures right and what "sounds" right.I wish I had more time today to test,but everyone is home now and the house is no longer quiet enough.Let me know what yousunday final.jpg think guys.Thanks again. How does it sound? While a treble roll-off above 8K (or so) is recommended, yours is steeper than recent Rxs for small (home) rooms. Audyssey came up with one that adapts the steeper commercial theater curve and the special SMPTE "smaller" theater curve (I think the SMPTE one I'm thinking of was for the screening rooms critics see films in), to a more moderate curve that, I believe, is more suited to the size rooms we have. Audyssey gives me mine, and I like it, and like it more than "Audyssey Flat," for the majority of music and movies with my Klipschorns. The Audyssey slope is -2 dB at 10K Hz (yours is more like -7 dB) and -6 dB at 20K (I don't know how you got so close to 20K, since most Klipschorns stop dead before 20 K [@ 17 or 17.5K perfectly on-axis]), but it looks like yours is almost - 20 dB at 17 K. Some of your music/movies might sound a little more alive if you tried the more moderate roll-off. Some people use the BBC dip, which the BBC thinks makes sound systems sound less harsh; Chris K., the head of Audyssey, said he never heard a sound system that wasn't improved by it. Khorns don't have the usual suspect in producing this harshness (a crossover at near 2K) but I think it improves the sound of my Khorns anyway. It is an approximately 2 dB dip centered at about 2K Hz, that extends from, maybe, 1.5 K to about 2.5 K. Since you probably have a slider near that, you might as well give it a try. SInce a 7 ft ceiling is a bit low (most people have 8 ft, Klipsch recommends 8.5 ft, or greater, for Khorns) can you put some absorption at the first reflection point on the ceiling? Do you think you went for a greater roll-off because of a ceiling reflection? IMO, any surfaces (small areas of ceiling, floor and side walls) that deliver a first reflection directly to your ears from the tweeter or midrange should get some absorption (or, if it's really good, diffusion). Be careful to not over-damp, though, On the bass end, it looks like you are stopping the sweep at 34Hz. My Khorns, in the various rooms they have been in, stop sounding good about there, or in another room 31Hz, or lower, with attenuation. With a turntable, people tended to put a filter on the bottom because of subsonic signals due to record warp. Now that I am all digital, I don't use a filter, and they respond more or less cleanly down to 24 Hz, but with massive attenuation (20 dB? I don't remember). They seem to sound better without the filter ... but I may be fooling myself. Edited March 16, 2014 by Garyrc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted March 16, 2014 Author Share Posted March 16, 2014 Wow. That's a mess! Can you show the khorns only frequencies from 35Hz to 200Hz? Also, if the Phase in top portion and frequency in bottom? edit: And no smoothing. I will post the 35hz to 200hz curve without smoothing but, don't know how to flip the phase and frequency... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Ok here are the 35-200hz curves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 That dip with both speakers at 68.5Hz is probably due to axial room modes in a 16.5' long room. Unless I miss my guess, your Khorns are on the 13.4' wall, and when they are both playing, the frequency bounces off the back wall, and collides with itself right where you are sitting. Moving your chair forward or backward will get you out of this; however, there is another axial cancellation at 70.6Hz vertically which you cannot avoid unless you sit higher or lower. It doesn't look to be causing as much of an effect as the other mode. If you can, just get RTA fired up, and move the microphone forward and back from the front wall, and see what happens to that 68.5Hz dip. The closer to the center of the room, the higher it should get. If you move your seating position, you will need to get new measurements. Just post the BOTH for the Klipschorns with phase and db. Depending on the plot, you will set a delay on one of your speakers to minimize the comb filtering that could be happening in that seat. You might try adding a 2ms delay to a speaker now to see what it does to the readings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Ok thanks I will give it try first chance I get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Effster Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Gary,thanks for the tips.The rolloff on the topend is kinda just where it landed.All I did was take any lumps and bumps out of it.I will try again next sunday to kick it up some like you suggested.I did have to turn up the bass tone slider abit,so I think I may put more of a "shelf" in the bottom end.And yes,the next upgrades are going to be the room.I agree it does need some panels at the early reflection points.And now that I have REW running,I can see the changes which is cool.Is there anywhere around the net that has the audyssey curves posted?Or are they top secret to them....lol.I would be curious to see what each setting does.Overall its getting better each weekend I adjust it.Its just hard to find the time when no-one is here not to be interupted.Again thanks for all the input. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 ... Is there anywhere around the net that has the audyssey curves posted?Or are they top secret to them....lol.I would be curious to see what each setting does.Overall its getting better each weekend I adjust it.Its just hard to find the time when no-one is here not to be interupted.Again thanks for all the input. Jeff A far as I know, there are only two Audyssey final, resulting curves. They both use a calibrated mic moved over 8 positions, and send a bunch if "pings" through your speakers, into the mic, then into their processor (in an AVR or preamp), which manipulates the sound over hundreds of points to try to smooth out the response, as well as treating the time domain Audyssey Flat (same as Audyssey Music) does whatever is necessary to bring your room and speakers close to being flat 20 to 20,000 Hz. The second curve, called Audyssey, or Audyssey Reference, or Audyssey Movie (all the same; differently named by different preamp/processor or AVR manufactures) tries to provide the slightly rolled off curve I mentioned in the last post, -2 db @ 10K, sloping down to - 6 dB @ 20 K. There are about 4 varieties of Audyssey: Ultra Cheap (not what they call it!), Cheap, Audyssey MultiEQXT, and Audyssey MultiEQ XT32. The newest one, and the one that has the best rep, is XT32. People fight over how much better XT 32 is, to the "Your mother wears combat boots" level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) The best way to use Audyssey with only THREE mic. positiions. Center of sweet spot about 6 inches in front, then swung 1 foot to either side. You will thank me later. Edited March 18, 2014 by ClaudeJ1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Effster Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Ok gary I will try that on sunday.What does it do on the bottom end?I put a pretty hefty "shelf" on the bottom and seems like it wants abit more.And as claude said,Im curious to see what moving the mic forward and around some does.1 other thing I do want to try is to put the EQ in between my dac and preamp instead of thru the tape loop like it is now.I wonder how much its degrading the sound that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I don't want to hi-jack canyonmans thread here,but here are some shots from today.My sub is only connected for HT use,not 2 channel where the sweeps are taken.The room is 18wx28dx7h.Khorns on 18' wall.I do not have tone controls on the aragon preamp,so it is interesting how flat and lifeless the music sounded before.This is some learning curve as to what measures right and what "sounds" right.I wish I had more time today to test,but everyone is home now and the house is no longer quiet enough.Let me know what yousunday final.jpg think guys.Thanks again.you should start a new thread about your graphs for suggestions. You mentioned hijacking his thread but that seems to be exactly what has gone on. Canyon man has an issue that others are trying to help and it is hard for me and I'm guessing others to read all responses when there is other completely different conversations going on. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 I don't want to hi-jack canyonmans thread here,but here are some shots from today.My sub is only connected for HT use,not 2 channel where the sweeps are taken.The room is 18wx28dx7h.Khorns on 18' wall.I do not have tone controls on the aragon preamp,so it is interesting how flat and lifeless the music sounded before.This is some learning curve as to what measures right and what "sounds" right.I wish I had more time today to test,but everyone is home now and the house is no longer quiet enough.Let me know what yousunday final.jpg think guys.Thanks again.you should start a new thread about your graphs for suggestions. You mentioned hijacking his thread but that seems to be exactly what has gone on. Canyon man has an issue that others are trying to help and it is hard for me and I'm guessing others to read all responses when there is other completely different conversations going on. Thank you. Thanks Scrappydue, I didn't want to seem like the bad guy here but, you are correct he has for the most part hijacked my thread!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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