Jubilee/MCM thoughts requested

[Vital]

 

...here is an account of said speakers used with Epik Empire subs that show how a non-horn loaded sub sounds amazing with them. SM60M with Epik Empires.

I guess that the listener liked a lot of THD in his sub

The Epik Empire actually reads better on the graph you posted than the Danley DTS-10...

 

always look below 40 Hz, not above, when assessing subwoofer performance. 

 

EDIT: Above 40 Hz, you're really talking about bass bin performance.  I've found that you typically want to use a separate bass bin from subwoofer due to modulation distortion issues that propagate from the lowest octave and a half of audibility/sensation, i.e., about 15-40 Hz, which of course is directly related to the motion of the driver's cone.  This is the subwoofers' reason for existence: to isolate these issues in the lowest frequency drivers/horns so that generated distortion products will not propagate via modulation distortion to the more audible higher frequencies.

 

Well there you go, I was looking from 40 Hz to 200 Hz lol. What are your thoughts on the Jubilee vs the KPT-942/4? The reason I ask is I find myself more attracted to the bass region of Chorus ll's and Cornwalls than I am to the LaScala and Khorn. I have a feeling I would prefer the sound of the KPT-942 or 942/4 over the folded horn of the Jube. 

[Chris A]

What are your thoughts on the Jubilee vs the KPT-942/4? The reason I ask is I find myself more attracted to the bass region of Chorus ll's and Cornwalls than I am to the La Scala and Khorn. I have a feeling I would prefer the sound of the KPT-942 or 942/4 over the folded horn of the Jube. 

 

I listened to a KPT-942/4 at a Klipsch facility--the same room that I heard Jubilees with differing HF drivers--for perhaps an hour with a variety of music, but mostly real bass-heavy stuff.  It was very impressive from the standpoint of impact, power, and the feeling of deep bass. 

 

However, I didn't care for the timbre and muddiness of the bass bin sound--but I don't believe that everyone that was there was in agreement, i.e., there were more than a few "chest thump addicts" that loved it.  This loudspeaker configuration clearly is something that is bought and installed in theaters.  And so is a 535 Jubilee.  YMMV.

 

I really don't like the sound of bass harmonic distortion and modulation distortion: I'm with PWK's written opinions on this subject.  I like the sound of double bass violins as they sound in real life--not 300-lb. angry bees as I remember the KPT-415-LF bass bin as sounding.

 

Chris

Edited September 7, 2014 by Chris A

[DrWho]

What frequency ranges dominate your perception of imaging? And what are your room acoustics looking like at 200Hz versus 10kHz?

[Decadent_Spectre]

I actually don't know which range is import for imaging.

 

Room has more trouble at 200Hz, lot of absorbtion in the room so 10Khz not that bad.

[DrWho]

Most of our imaging cues come from higher frequencies - and I think a large part of it has to do with the size of the wavelengths relative to the spacing of our ears. At 100Hz, the wavelength is 11ft...so our left and right ears, if 6 inches apart, are only hearing a 16 degree difference in phase. At 2kHz where the wavelength is close to 6 inches, we're hearing a 360 degree phase difference. And at 20kHz that would be over a 3,000 degree difference in phase.

 

So all that to say - the higher frequencies dominate imaging because we have more frequency resolution of the time arrival differences.

 

As far as room acoustics, we generally have room modes dominating the ~50Hz to ~300Hz frequency range depending on the room. This will dramatically dominate any amount of polar response abnormalities of the speakers - and one might argue that a wider polar response is beneficial in maximizing the number of paths (which makes the nulls of the modes narrower and therefore less objectionable). All that to say, the shift in acoustic center from transitioning to the K402 to Jub LF is probably going to be masked by the modal response. And in all reality that shift is only going to exist in the vertical plane, to which our ears (being horizontally aligned) are not at as sensitive.

 

Because the SH50 has two drivers covering the 450Hz to 20kHz range, there is going to be a shift in the distortion timbre right in the middle of the midrange. I also have some reservations about the behavior of offset throat horns because there is a slight delay in the "building" of the signal that I think would create some smear in the time domain even though the frequency response is flat. By using a single drive unit, the K402 should present a more cohesive sound....although the single drive unit is going to exhibit more frequency modulation distortion than the SH50 with its multiple drive units. To me, this indicates a inconsistency in Chris's comments where he insists that he is always trying to minimize FMD....splitting up the bandwidth means lower FMD.

 

The SH50 has a narrower directivity (50x50 versus 90x60), which will pull energy out of the later arriving signal (the reverberant domain), which generally has the perception of narrowing the soundstage. I think people respond to this narrowing differently whereas some think the imaging is more precise and therefore better, whereas others feel like the imaging is reduced because it sounds disconnected and less immersive. I personally prefer the more open and wider sound generated by the wider dispersion speakers....but not to the point of preferring omni-directional designs. I like to maintain a clean initial signal, which means keeping the sound off the side walls and ceiling so that the first reflections are delayed much longer, and also of lower magnitude.

 

 

To be fair, I've not heard the SH50 in a quality home environment, but all things considered, I personally would lean heavily towards the Jubilee if imaging was a primary concern. Tonal balance and distortion are going to be low with both designs, and the SH50 is going to be more tonally accurate in the lower frequencies. There is some bloat happening in the Jub LF that makes a kick drum sound like it is beating against a washboard - overexageration of course, but I would take the sound of angry bees over bathtub drums any day of the week.

 

Btw, I too was there when we did the Jub LF versus KPT415....all I can say is that is not the best sounding quad 15" cabinet I've heard to date, whereas the Jub LF is probably the best bass horn I've heard. Also, the Jub LF had months if not years of voicing put into the xover whereas the KPT415 was whipped up on the fly. Voicing has a huge effect on comparisons like this...

[Decadent_Spectre]

Hi Mike,

 

Appreciate the detailed reply but it only serves to confuse me as to which would be more ideal, I see your points as saying they are both great but have different trade offs (as your signature notes its all about compromise, with everything in life).

 

I listen primarily to elecronic music, also some rock/metal/pop. My room is 16x11x8 feet and has a lot of absorption. I like precisely centered clear lifelike vocals, a melodic (warm?) sound with rolled off highs and as much chest slam as one can get (accuracy not required in the bass), I do prefer bass horns and is one of the main reasons I am considering the Jubilee. I also looked into ALtec 815As to  be paired with SH50s. For subs I have a pair of Danley BC412s (that are yet to be connected).

 

All that said would there be any particular direction you would recommend? I only ask about this because I am not satisfied with what the SH50's LF section does. I do enjoy what it does in the mid/hf. I suspect that had the SH50 been mated to the Jubilee bass bin I would be satisfied.

[Chris A]

...By using a single drive unit, the K402 should present a more cohesive sound...although the single drive unit is going to exhibit more frequency modulation distortion than the SH50 with its multiple drive units. To me, this indicates a inconsistency in Chris's comments where he insists that he is always trying to minimize FMD....splitting up the bandwidth means lower FMD.

 

The SH50 has a narrower directivity (50x50 versus 90x60), which will pull energy out of the later arriving signal (the reverberant domain), which generally has the perception of narrowing the soundstage. I think people respond to this narrowing differently whereas some think the imaging is more precise and therefore better, whereas others feel like the imaging is reduced because it sounds disconnected and less immersive. I personally prefer the more open and wider sound generated by the wider dispersion speakers....but not to the point of preferring omnidirectional designs. I like to maintain a clean initial signal, which means keeping the sound off the side walls and ceiling so that the first reflections are delayed much longer, and also of lower magnitude.

 

To be fair, I've not heard the SH50 in a quality home environment, but all things considered, I personally would lean heavily towards the Jubilee if imaging was a primary concern. Tonal balance and distortion are going to be low with both designs, and the SH50 is going to be more tonally accurate in the lower frequencies. There is some bloat happening in the Jub LF that makes a kick drum sound like it is beating against a washboard - over-exaggeration of course, but I would take the sound of angry bees over bathtub drums any day of the week.

 

Btw, I too was there when we did the Jub LF versus KPT415....all I can say is that is not the best sounding quad 15" cabinet I've heard to date, whereas the Jub LF is probably the best bass horn I've heard. Also, the Jub LF had months if not years of voicing put into the xover whereas the KPT415 was whipped up on the fly. Voicing has a huge effect on comparisons like this...

 

These are all excellent points, Mike.

 

BTW: remember that I said that the K402 would sound "more coherent" (but I did not say lower in FMD).  I see the coherency need as much more important than the FMD avoidance using multiple ways and the problems that you get into with crossovers and trying to match polars and phase in the crossover bands, etc.  I've found that the slightly higher FMD of a two-way Jub with K-402 isn't as objectionable as incoherency of a three way  YMMV.

 

Also this is very important: all the Jub bass bins that you heard in Hope had a very large 60-190 Hz peaking response, which, once you tame that using the remaining PEQs on the Dx38 (or other active crossover that you'd use), the sound is MUCH more natural.  If you've not heard this, I really recommend taking the time to do it when you hear Jubs again. My Jub Dx38 settings reflect this taming of the bass bins in this band.  See the difference in the two green-colored traces below in the 60-190 Hz band:

 

Edited September 9, 2014 by Chris A

[DrWho]

When you say electronic music, what are the first five bands that come to mind? Are you talking dance music, or more chill groove, or even new age? And how loud are you listening?

I listen to a lot of electronic stuff...Skrillex, Glitch Mob, Massive Attack, and Enigma have recently been on my playlist. I also enjoy the Buddha Bar station on Pandora.

[Decadent_Spectre]

I mean things like Assemblage 23,Frozen Plasma,Gareth Emery,XP8,Wumpscut,Andy Moor. Ocassionally even something like Pendulum,Infected Mushroon or some dubstep.

 

EBM,Trance,Synthpop,Industrial,Dance even some 80's music are the basic genres I would say. As for loud, it varies but I would venture a guess that typical listening is about 100-105db but I often push it right upto the edge when the mood strikes.

 

I do listen to some softer music as well sometimes such as Dream Theater or random guitar/piano/vocal songs that I come across.

[Chris A]

Dynamic range measures for the artists that you mention that are in the DR Database (http://dr.loudness-war.info/) include the following:

 

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year?artist=Gareth+Emery

 

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/18432

 

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year?artist=Dream+Theater

 

My guess is that you're not really looking for dynamic performance, which is a major forte of the type of loudspeakers that we've been discussing, electronic music of the type that you state (which I listened to this AM on YouTube) isn't very demanding of dynamic range.  The only possible exception perhaps is for the unmentioned "random guitar/piano/vocal" songs.  If you like to listen at very high SPL then fully horn-loaded loudspeakers of any type would likely become preferred--due mostly to much lower modulation and compression distortion levels at very high SPLs.

 

The question remaining in my mind is how much you would hear modulation distortion--AMD and FMD--between the Danley SH50s (multiple-way design) and Klipsch K-402s (single driver design) with very good compression drivers. My guess is that you won't hear much if any difference in this area, since both exhibit extremely low modulation distortion relative to virtually any direct-radiating loudspeaker type.  Mike (DrWho) mentioned his reservations about the off-axis placement of drivers within a unity-horn-type loudspeaker.  When I look at Danley's design, I see some effort has been made to the symmetry of the midrange and woofer drivers within the design, which would tend to cancel any asymmetric HOM generation within the horn (and being able to exit the horn in a way that can be heard). 

 

Additionally, I wonder about your preferences in terms of the size of the soundstage image and its stability as you walk across the room, which is a significant and notable discriminator of the K-402 horn.  Everyone that I've invited over has commented on the size and stability of the stereo imaging of the K-402s without me saying anything, and have stated that they were not aware that loudspeakers in a home environment could have such room-filling properties.  This would probably be the most significant listening difference between the Danley SH-50s vs. Klipsch K-402 with good compression drivers.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Chris A

[Vital]

This would probably be the most significant listening difference between the Danley SH-50s vs. Klipsch K-402 with good compression drivers.

Lot's of great info in this thread and another thread that I was catching up on yesterday for quite awhile. In that thread a lot was said with lot's of different opinions on what a good compression driver is with the 402. It ranged from the stock k69 to the Faital HF200 offered by Bob Crites to the B&C, the BMS, the TAD and it kept going I believe. I thought I was onto something with the BMS driver in a two way setup and then several people came in saying the 3-way with stock drivers was better than everything else. Information overload lol. So... just to keep this short, I'll leave the 3-way out of it. If I were going with the 2-way system, is the best bang for the buck driver for the k402 the BMS 4592ND? I know the TAD is amazing but the price and availability is probably not going to be an option right off the bat. I guess my question is, when you mention a good compression driver for the k402, on a list with the TAD being the best driver, what would be the next best driver?

[mark1101]

For me it is the BMS 4592ND coax.

 

Why ae you tossing the idea of 3 way out.  That's the best solution.  I don't get it.

[Vital]

For me it is the BMS 4592ND coax.

 

Why ae you tossing the idea of 3 way out.  That's the best solution.  I don't get it.

Oh I have not tossed it out as an option. I am just trying to get an idea of what drivers are the best option if I were to go with the 2-way setup. I may end up having to piece the system together over time if my business doesn't pick up so I'm trying to figure out the best option with the k402 to start with. I am assuming the 3-way is the most expensive option.  

[mark1101]

It took me 5-6 years to build my MCM setup.  I stated with MWM cabinet and a 402 in 2 way.

 

What do you want to have in the end?  Figure a way to get there. 

[ClaudeJ1]

Because the SH50 has two drivers covering the 450Hz to 20kHz range, there is going to be a shift in the distortion timbre right in the middle of the midrange. I also have some reservations about the behavior of offset throat horns because there is a slight delay in the "building" of the signal that I think would create some smear in the time domain even though the frequency response is flat. By using a single drive unit, the K402 should present a more cohesive sound....although the single drive unit is going to exhibit more frequency modulation distortion than the SH50 with its multiple drive units. To me, this indicates a inconsistency in Chris's comments where he insists that he is always trying to minimize FMD....splitting up the bandwidth means lower FMD.  

 

I agree with half of this and disagree with half of this. I own both. 

[ClaudeJ1]

 

For me it is the BMS 4592ND coax.

 

Why ae you tossing the idea of 3 way out.  That's the best solution.  I don't get it.

Oh I have not tossed it out as an option. I am just trying to get an idea of what drivers are the best option if I were to go with the 2-way setup. I may end up having to piece the system together over time if my business doesn't pick up so I'm trying to figure out the best option with the k402 to start with. I am assuming the 3-way is the most expensive option.  

 

Not always. You need to consider that a few people here have spent over $3,000 in premium components for a passive network or the equivalent in Active Xover/PEQ with 4 amplifiers. You can[t do 2-way horn setups without PEQ and HF shelving. I did my 3-way xover for less than $500 as a hybrid active/passive setup and NO PEQ and shelving, just well matched components in terms of efficiency and directivity with simple parts.

Edited September 10, 2014 by ClaudeJ1

[Chris A]

...You need to consider that a few people here have spent over $3,000 in premium components for a passive network or the equivalent in Active Xover/PEQ with 4 amplifiers.

 

...You can't do 2-way horn setups without PEQ and HF shelving.

 

I never thought that passive crossovers made any sense at all.  Would you care to share why you think that digital PEQs and shelving filters from high quality active digital crossovers aren't the outstanding way to provide for the solution, and as it just so happens, the best economic solution, too?

Edited September 10, 2014 by Chris A

[Decadent_Spectre]

Excelllent points and discussion.

 

I think its safe to say that both options are very good based on the thoughts posted by multiple people. This brings me to my main point which I mentioned a few posts ago, it is the LF section I find to be lacking in the SH50. I find it to be a bit bloated and lacking punch and attack, it lacks speed. I was looking for more attack/speed and punch here, as well as something that isn't bloated. With the Sh50s I have to pull down the 150-400Hz region a lot. Perhaps it is just my own prefrences and not a design flaw? I do definitely feel a lack of speed and punch. As I mentioned I was primarily interested in the Jubilee for the bass bin or the MWM from the MCM system, I also wouldn't mind other mid bass horns sch as the Altec or the ones posted on Inlow sound, other mid bass horns that come to mind are the DS15 from Funktion one or the Hyperfold from Void. I was initially concnerned that the Jubilee system might give up too much in the mid/hf but I feel confident from reading the replies that it will also be a great performer. The SH96HO in biamp looks to have a very smooth response but I wouldn't go that route because it is also has the same LF design as the SH50s.

 

At this point I suppose the question is that for my circumstances is adding some sort of midbass horn or switching to the Jubilee/MCM systems going to help with my issues? I have EQed the system to be flat as well in the past and I did not care for the sound.

[Chris A]

...At this point I suppose the question is that for my circumstances is adding some sort of midbass horn or switching to the Jubilee/MCM systems going to help with my issues? I have EQed the system to be flat as well in the past and I did not care for the sound.

 

When you EQ the system "flat", it will likely sound bass shy, flat, and a bit strident.  The reasons why this is true is basically due to head-related transfer function (HRTF) issues and some issues related to the precedence effect in small rooms (i.e., acoustically small rooms).  Making your own "house curve" is something subjective, but I've found that increasing LF response below 100 Hz at about 3 dB/octave slope is fairly pleasing.  I've seen house curves looking something like the following (depending on your room acoustics, size, and your own listening preferences):

 

 

The above curve would be one that might be used in much larger venues - especially the roll-off in higher frequencies.  I do not attenuate the HFs in my room, at least not those frequencies below 7-10 KHz.

 

As far as your midbass question -- if you've got the room and use something else to provide the 20-50 Hz band, like a horn-loaded sub of TH configuration or perhaps a front-loaded horn subwoofer of enormous size, I'd recommend the MWM bins (two stacked on each side) or perhaps Claude's quarter pie design -- assuming that cost is a factor.  MWM bins can be had for less than $1K (US) and the Quarter Pie bins can be built for probably half that amount.  Jubilee bass bins with run you about $4K(US) a pair from Klipsch, but there are certain advantages of using them.  The MWM will sound the most open, natural, impactful, and "fast" (whatever that actually means).  The Jub bass bins will go almost an octave deeper, and take up less floor space.

 

Here is an inverse-HRTF curve of a dummy head from Staffeldt's article (JAES) that would be applicable to diffuse (i.e., very large) listening environments / rooms that would be a starting point for creating a house curve if you lived in an arena:

 

Edited September 11, 2014 by Chris A

[Coytee]

How close are you to Tennessee?

 

I've got a pair of MWM's that I (we, hahahahahaha) could drag outside.  Set atop of them, a single K402 (with K69 and/or TAD driver), we could slip a Peavy MB1 in between to see how that might change....  we can set a 3 way LaScala on top to give you a flavor of that as well.

 

Then, indoors (as I'm currently hesitant to move them) you can listen to the Jubilee's as 2-way.

 

Honest offer if you are ever in / near Knoxville.