surge protection on projector?

[Paducah Home Theater]

So basically an unnamed high end place recently told me to run an extension cord from your projector to your rack. Except, that would involve some kind of weird stuff if it is ceiling mounted, which he recommended, which unless it was butt-ugly, could only be possible by lacing an extension cord through your wall and whatnot. I've ran this by master electricians and they weren't exactly on board with it. Getting power to it generally speaking is no problem, but I don't quite get running an extension cord through the wall and whatnot. Any thoughts? What is this guy talking about? IF he was worried about surge protection alone seems like whole-house surge protection solutions would be recommended. Seems like a dedicated circuit with an outlet in the ceiling would be nice but according to the guy I talked to that's not the optimal way to do it.

Edited November 17, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Youthman]

I would be hesitant to run an extension cord through your wall.  We added an outlet in my attic but I really need to add a UPS Backup up there, just haven't made it a priority. 

[A1UC]

This is what I used since I installed a outlet above projector and didn't want a bunch of crap hanging down

 

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-Decora-15-Amp-Tamper-Resistant-Duplex-Surge-Outlet-with-Indicator-Light-White-R00-T5280-00W/202066692

[Scrappydue]

I run extension cord. Not because anyone recommended it but because it was my only option. But it's easily accessible as my back half of my basement is unfinished. So the ceiling joists are exposed. Fished the cord over with a wooden dowel and bam. And it is also plugged into a Panamax.

[westom]

Seems like a dedicated circuit with an outlet in the ceiling would be nice but according to the guy I talked to that's not the optimal way to do it.

 

He should have known that extension cords are only legal for temporary power.  The projector needs a fixed power receptacle.  He should have known extension cords in the wall are major human safety violations.Obviously. Even completely different wire is manufactured for interior wall installation.

[Paducah Home Theater]

The official explanation I got from a major distributor was that ideally when your house is being built, you run romex in conduit from your rack to projector so you can use your rack mounted surge protector or preferably rack mounted ups to theoretically prevent damage to the bulbs during hard cycles when the power flickers.  Otherwise, you use the receptacle level surge like what was mentioned earlier.  I guess my question at this point would be how you terminate the 12/2 romex once it gets to your rack.  Somehow it would either have to directly connect to your ups or you'd have to terminate it with a plug, effectively turning it in to an extension cord. 

[Scrappydue]

id think you would just run it in to a box and basically use any power cord from ups to the wall socket, essentially making the romex an authorized "extension" cord. 

[westom]

The official explanation I got from a major distributor was that ideally when your house is being built, you run romex in conduit from your rack to projector so you can use your rack mounted surge protector or preferably rack mounted ups to theoretically prevent damage to the bulbs during hard cycles when the power flickers.  

How does a surge protector avert heat damage to bulbs?  It doesn't.  Salesmen make that claim when told to.  Salesmen do not ask what is always required to be informed - reasons why with numbers.  Explains why salesmen even recommend what is a code violation.

 

How does cooling bulbs faster avert damage due to heat?  It doesn't.  Fan remains on after the bulb powers off to cool a bulb as fast as possible.  Because a still hot bulb can be damaged if the projector is physically moved.  Cooling a bulb faster can only be harder on its filament.  Hot filament is easily damaged by movement - when hot or when cooling.  If a projector is not moved, then cooling after power off is unnecessary.

 

What does a UPS do?  Provides temporary and 'dirty' power if AC power is lost.  It does nothing for hardware protection.  And does nothing for a bulb if a projector remains stationary.  Forget what is official.  Instead use science (the always necessary reasons why) to appreciate why a recommendation exists.

 

Extension cord must never be routed inside walls.  That was a major safety code violation.  Romex must be attached inside walls so that it and its connected box does not move.

[Youthman]

How does a surge protector avert heat damage to bulbs? It doesn't.

This thread has several thoughts that disagree....I'm have no personal knowledge of whether bulbs can definitely be damaged without cooling down properly.

 

 

 

There have been several threads that mention twisted and burnt out LCD panels by people who were unplugging the projectors to turn them off

 

 

 

The things that cooks with LCD panels in projectors are generally the Blue screen Polarizers and the blue panel itself. This is one of the reasons there are multiple fans inside the projectors that blow over different parts. You shut off the projector abruptly and the heat remains in the projector and puts a huge stress on all parts in the light path. The arc chamber gets heated in the thousands of degree range. Its very similar to an arc welders spark. The arc chamber gets hot enough to weaken the glass almost to the point where it will become molten. If improperly cooled it develops a dimple,becomes oblong or explodes. That's why it is constantly being subjected to fresh moving air to keep it cool. I don't know enough about DLP's and heat issues but I think there could be a problem with the heat sink that cools the chip itself if it is abruptly shut off. Either way you need to keep the lamp cool

Edited November 19, 2014 by Youthman

[Paducah Home Theater]

 

What does a UPS do?  Provides temporary and 'dirty' power if AC power is lost.  It does nothing for hardware protection.  And does nothing for a bulb if a projector remains stationary.  Forget what is official.  Instead use science (the always necessary reasons why) to appreciate why a recommendation exists.

 

This guy is a rep for a projector manufacturer:

 

http://www.ccisolutions.com/StoreFront/category/keep-your-projector-running-smoothly

 

"When starting up your projector let it warm up all the way prior to shutting it down. If you shutdown right away after turning it on, you'll most likely blow your lamp. The cool down process is also very important to the life of your lamp. Steve Long recommends, "When turning off your projector, let it go through the cool down cycle before moving or disconnecting it." Not allowing the projector to go through cool down could cause the unit to overheat and the lamp lifecycle to lessen."

 

 

If you want to talk about science, think about what happens when you just turn the power off.  The bulbs don't just go off and cool down on their own due to the lack of fans.  The fans are keeping the bulbs and the rest of the unit cool.  Turning off the fans likely lets the bulbs get hotter than usual, and regardless of that, it is cooking the rest of the unit.  It's like wondering whether your engine would be hotter while cruising down the interstate, or stuck in a traffic jam with a broken fan belt.  

Edited November 19, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[westom]

 

If you want to talk about science, think about what happens when you just turn the power off.  The bulbs don't just go off and cool down on their own due to the lack of fans.  The fans are keeping the bulbs and the rest of the unit cool.  Turning off the fans likely lets the bulbs get hotter than usual, ...

 

Nonsense.  Heat (temperature) does not increase when a bulb is powered off.  Without a fan, cooling continues - just slower.

 

Does slower cooling damage a bulb?  Well after many generations, this would be the first time I have ever see or heard of it - from virtually every bulb manufacturer.  Another lesson from generations of doing this stuff: when a claim exists without saying why, then it is usually hearsay, myth, or outright lie.

 

Any consumer appliance damaged by power off violates international design standards that existed even decades before PCs existed.  If residual heat in the bulb can damage electronics (LCD), then an appliance must have a battery powered fan to keep a fan spinning when AC power is unexpectedly lost.

 

Well yes, some manufacturers might want to blame you rather then properly design with a rechargeable battery (or something equivalent).. That assumes an LCD is damaged by heat.  LCDs do stop working when heated.  And then restore operation when cooled.

 

But that is secondary.  Critical is an irresponsible recommendation of running an extension cord in walls.

Edited November 20, 2014 by westom

[Paducah Home Theater]

Nonsense.  Heat (temperature) does not increase when a bulb is powered off.  Without a fan, cooling continues - just slower.

Google "heat soak", aka. "afterboil". Seems to me that the same phenomenon could occur. The forces in play are the same basic principal.  With this logic you'd probably say it is nonsense that an engine gets hotter after you switch it off yet it is totally possible.  The article below warns of engine damage.  So, if it is a well known phenomenon that parts of a cooled engine can get measurably hotter and damage components due to excess heat after it is turned off, why couldn't a cooled projector potentially do the same thing?  

http://www.mawsolutions.com/html/heat_soak_effects_on_engines.html

 

 

Edited November 20, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[westom]

Google "heat soak", aka. "afterboil". Seems to me that the same phenomenon could occur. The forces in play are the same basic principal.  With this logic you'd probably say it is nonsense that an engine gets hotter after you switch it off yet it is totally possible.

 

 

 

Engine clearly does not get hotter when turned off.  That should be obvious from high school science.  To get hotter, then calories (of heat) must be input to an engine - or light bulb.  Both have no incoming energy and only radiate energy - therefore get cooler.  That chart discusses something completely different.  Basic concepts such as "Conservation of Energy" (as  taught in junior high and high school science) apply.

 

That article assumes a grasp of high school science.  Without that science, then one could easily make conclusions contrary to what that heatsoak article says.

 

During power off, a projector bulb only gets cooler.  Moving air cools that bulb faster.  No bulb gets warmer after power is removed - as made obvious from concepts taught in school science.

[Scrappydue]

If you want to talk about science, think about what happens when you just turn the power off. The bulbs don't just go off and cool down on their own due to the lack of fans. The fans are keeping the bulbs and the rest of the unit cool. Turning off the fans likely lets the bulbs get hotter than usual, ...

Nonsense. Heat (temperature) does not increase when a bulb is powered off. Without a fan, cooling continues - just slower.

Does slower cooling damage a bulb? Well after many generations, this would be the first time I have ever see or heard of it - from virtually every bulb manufacturer. Another lesson from generations of doing this stuff: when a claim exists without saying why, then it is usually hearsay, myth, or outright lie.

Any consumer appliance damaged by power off violates international design standards that existed even decades before PCs existed. If residual heat in the bulb can damage electronics (LCD), then an appliance must have a battery powered fan to keep a fan spinning when AC power is unexpectedly lost.

Well yes, some manufacturers might want to blame you rather then properly design with a rechargeable battery (or something equivalent).. That assumes an LCD is damaged by heat. LCDs do stop working when heated. And then restore operation when cooled.

But that is secondary. Critical is an irresponsible recommendation of running an extension cord in walls.

I'm wondering why when we cook food that when you take meat off the heat source it continues to hear internally usually another 5 degrees or so. Also with pasta or veggies or shrimp. If they are perfect you blanch them in cold water to stop the cooking immediately otherwise they continue to hear internally and cook possibly more than desired?

I'm on board with the bulb still heating up, not a lot, maybe a degree or two and then cooling down.

[Paducah Home Theater]

During power off, a projector bulb only gets cooler.  Moving air cools that bulb faster.  No bulb gets warmer after power is removed - as made obvious from concepts taught in school science.

Regardless of projectors, if you have a heat emitting source that is surrounded by material that is cooled, then you turn off the cooling system and wrap it in an insulator (air is an excellent insulator), some things are going to get hotter even if the source isn't burning additional energy, especially on the top. It's like running a marathon in July then putting a winter coat on when you're done. You're probably going to overheat even though you have stopped. The problem is that the heat you already generated is suddenly failing to be dissipated.

Edited November 21, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[westom]

 

I'm wondering why when we cook food that when you take meat off the heat source it continues to hear internally usually another 5 degrees or so. Also with pasta or veggies or shrimp. 

 

 

If temperature increases another 5 degrees without any input heat, then it is a miracle.  Contact the Pope.

 

When meat is removed from a 350 degree F oven, it only cools eventualy to 300 degrees F.  And therefore still cooks.  If pasta is cooled with water, it remains at something less than 100 degree C - and continues to cook inside.

 

Demonstrated is classic example of junk science due to observations not tempered by well proven science.  Once electricity is removed from a bulb, that bulb immediately cools.  How much?  Does not matter.  Only relevant is it does not and cannot get hotter.  A bogus assumption, not based in proven science and declared a fact using observation combined with feelings, contradicts basic high school science.  Only way something can get hotter is if more calories are input.  That is taught to every high school science student.

 

Meanwhile this is silly.  Since teaching high school science is irrelevant and should not be necessary.  Instead the important (and ignored) topic is that major human safety violation (probably recommended by a salesman who was a high school dropout).  An extension cord cannot and must not be routed inside walls to a projector.  Principles of human safety and defined by codes are blunt.  Extension cord must only be a temporary connection to that projector or any other appliance.

[Scrappydue]

I'm wondering why when we cook food that when you take meat off the heat source it continues to hear internally usually another 5 degrees or so. Also with pasta or veggies or shrimp.

If temperature increases another 5 degrees without any input heat, then it is a miracle. Contact the Pope.

When meat is removed from a 350 degree F oven, it only cools eventualy to 300 degrees F. And therefore still cooks. If pasta is cooled with water, it remains at something less than 100 degree C - and continues to cook inside.

Demonstrated is classic example of junk science due to observations not tempered by well proven science. Once electricity is removed from a bulb, that bulb immediately cools. How much? Does not matter. Only relevant is it does not and cannot get hotter. A bogus assumption, not based in proven science and declared a fact using observation combined with feelings, contradicts basic high school science. Only way something can get hotter is if more calories are input. That is taught to every high school science student.

Meanwhile this is silly. Since teaching high school science is irrelevant and should not be necessary. Instead the important (and ignored) topic is that major human safety violation (probably recommended by a salesman who was a high school dropout). An extension cord cannot and must not be routed inside walls to a projector. Principles of human safety and defined by codes are blunt. Extension cord must only be a temporary connection to that projector or any other appliance.

while I never claimed to be a science major or pay attention in high school I do watch a lot of food network and cook a lot.

Read this: http://www.thermoworks.com/blog/2010/11/give-your-meat-a-rest/

I was only trying to relate the bulb thing to that. I guess I am wrong. The expert has spoken. But if you believe that meat doesn't rise after pulling it from the heat source do some cooking. You'll see exactly what they are talking about. I've gone through a lot of grilling to get to the point of understanding what they were talking about when reading articles like that one. It's all good.

[Paducah Home Theater]

If temperature increases another 5 degrees without any input heat, then it is a miracle.  Contact the Pope.

 

When meat is removed from a 350 degree F oven, it only cools eventualy to 300 degrees F.  And therefore still cooks.  If pasta is cooled with water, it remains at something less than 100 degree C - and continues to cook inside.

Somebody doesn't know how to cook a steak.

Ever hear of "resting"? Why do you think this is done? When you sear a thick steak you heat up the outside. That doesn't mean the center immediately gets hot, it's probably still cold. You pull it off the heat and let it rest. During this time, heat from the outside transfers to the center, making the center hotter than before you pulled it off of the fire. If you just let it sit there on the fire until the center is like you like it, first of all you'd burn the outside to a crisp, second of all, it would continue to cook for way too long and your center will be overdone.

That's not to say that it's burning any additional calories or that even the steak itself is getting hotter as a whole. In fact, it's getting cooler as a whole, especially the outside, which is transferring heat to both the surrounding air and also the center of the steak. HOWEVER, certain parts of it (the center) does in fact get hotter once you take the heat off. The exact same thing happens in an engine. No the engine as a whole doesn't get hotter. You continue to insist this but hey, we get it. Do certain parts of an engine get hotter due to heat transfer due to shutting off the cooling system? Sure it does. Hot parts transfer heat to the parts that were cooled up until you shut the thing off.

 

high school

Repeating this phrase (7 times now) adds nothing to your credibility in case you were wondering, especially since you cannot grasp simple ideas such as heat transfer.

Edited November 22, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Paducah Home Theater]

Scrappy beat me to the steak analogy as I was typing it. Funny.

[Paducah Home Theater]

Also for the record he never actually said to fish it in through the wall. What he said was to mount it on the ceiling, while at the same time recommending running an extension cord to it. It wasn't until later when a lightbulb came on and I realized that the two ideas were not compatible. For them to be, you'd have to fish it through the wall, which is obviously not kosher. Had I realized it at the time I would ask him to clarify. A direct wire surge protector in your rack that is attached to romex surrounded by conduit inside of the wall running into your attic seems to be the most proper solution if possible. It's a little too late for that for me.