Cartridge setup done (for now)

[LarryC]

The red arrow is pointing to where my counterweight is positioned. We are on the same page. My issue is that with the counterweight positioned to exert the least amount of anti-skating force the tone arm still tries to swing back towards the arm rest.

OK, the pic gets around the "up" semantic, and the labeling makes it clear.  You're also nice and clear on the dynamics of how the A/S works.  Haven't asked -- what's your tracking weight, and what cart?

 

In what circumstance does the arm swing back outside?  What does it do if the A/S is detached (remove the loop)?  I have to detach my A/S in order to set the tracking weight, because otherwise the stylus won't stay put on the smooth plate of my Ortofon scale.

 

So, does the skate happen if you are applying 0 gm tracking weight?  If so, I would expect it to swing outward, because even the lowest A/S on that arm applies a minimum anti-skate.

 

Larry 

Edited February 23, 2015 by LarryC

[LarryC]

I don't use any counter weight...

Do you use the JMW arm?  IIRC, VPI doesn't use anti skate. 

[Schu]

there is a counter weight on the memorial arm and indeed, many users of the rega P series (rb700/rb1000 arms) run with anti skate disengaged.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Schu

[Audible Nectar]

When I got my Thorens and had to mount the cartridge and tonearm, I made a file of mental health service numbers just in case God forbid when I have to replace the cartridge again - now I understand why I like my Ah! Njoe Tjoeb 4000 CD so much.

 

Vinyl sounds really good but it's a painindeazz.

[ricktate]

From a back yard mechanics view you need a smaller weight on there or the table is not level . Try taking the weight off see what happens you can always drill a hole in the weight to make it lighter. Is our cart. really lighter than most other ones? Did you set the tacking weight with anti-skate off seems to me this would throw the calculations off .  In other words I do not think tracking force is at 1.43 grams.....just my view not an expert.... just trying to help. Rick

Edited February 24, 2015 by ricktate

[USNRET]

Symptoms:

When letting stylus down on lead-in grove the arm would slide off towards the arm rest

With TT off I could let stylus down on blank part of LP near lead-out grove and the arm would slide outwards toward the arm rest

I have removed the A/S weight completely and then zero balanced the arm / cartridge to 'hover'. With weight removed the arm will start to return to arm rest but stop slightly before the full travel (see photo). If I lift the weight of the A/S arm until thread is slack the arm will swing inwards toward spindle.

Shouldn't the arm be neutral and not pull in either direction when floating and no A/S weight applied when the arm is static?

It seems that I need a lighter counter weight.

0441 shows tracking force set with A/S weight removed

0443 shows where arm stops on its own when it is zero balanced

BTW, I played an album with the A/S weight removed and found that

1) the lead-in grove worked as it should but I could see that it was more of an abrupt movement when the needle came down; again indicating to me that some amount of A/S needed to be added

2) now this is strange but I found that the right channel could be turned back down equal to left channel gain where the right was bumped up a bit to center the stage.

Edited February 24, 2015 by USNRET

[LarryC]

there is a counter weight on the memorial arm and indeed, many users of the rega P series (rb700/rb1000 arms) run with anti skate disengaged.

I wonder if we've confused things a tad -- counterweights are used on the back end of TONEARMS, and I don't think one can have a functioning arm without one.  Tracking force is almost always set by sliding that arm's counterweight ("CW") toward or back from the pivot point.  One is trying to set the stylus downforce by calibrating how much heavier to make the stylus end of the arm heavier than the CW end.

 

I mistakenly called the anti skating sliding weight a "counterweight."  My bad.  I should have just called it a "weight."  It sets the amount of A/S force by how far it's slid away from the tonearm pivot.

 

Antiskating is an inexact measurement, and indeed some arms dispense with it.  Most think it's important, and most arms can set some antisakting.  But, skating can be increased by increased friction between the vinyl and the stylus!  

[LarryC]

Symptoms: When letting stylus down on lead-in grove the arm would slide off towards the arm rest With TT off I could let stylus down on blank part of LP near lead-out grove and the arm would slide outwards toward the arm rest   I have removed the counterweight completely and then zero balanced the arm / cartridge to 'hover'. With counterweight removed the arm will start to return to arm rest but stop slightly before the full travel (see photo). If I lift the weight of the A/S arm (with weight still removed) until thread is slack the arm will swing inwards toward spindle as expected.   It seems that I need a lighter counter weight.

My stylus will slide outward off the LP if it doesn't catch the lead-in groove.  I think you didn't set it in quite far enough.  I don't think that has anything to do with A/S.

 

I'm pretty sure you removed the AS weight, not the arm CW, as you seemed to say above.

 

You don't need a "lighter counter (sic) weight."  Rather, you slide the A/S weight in closer to the arm pivot, which will decrease the A/S force. 

 

However --- what cart are you using?  1.43 gm  is almost certainly tracking too light and won't behave well in the groove.  Most carts I have dealt with require at 2.0 gm downforce.  Tracking it too light can cause the stylus to skitter across the grooves.  The purpose of the A/S is to counteract that tendency, but you have to have the right matchup between tracking weight and A/S force.

 

If your tracking weight is too light, you may have a mismatch between it and your A/S -- the arm may skitter outward.  In that case, decrease the A/S.

 

So, IMO, you need to set the tracking downforce to 2.0 gm and leave the A/S slider at its midpoint.  Unless, that is, your cart instructions say to set a lighter tracking weight, such as 1.5 gm.  In that case, set a lower A/S.

 

Larry

Edited February 24, 2015 by LarryC

[USNRET]

Symptoms: When letting stylus down on lead-in grove the arm would slide off towards the arm rest With TT off I could let stylus down on blank part of LP near lead-out grove and the arm would slide outwards toward the arm rest   I have removed the counterweight completely and then zero balanced the arm / cartridge to 'hover'. With counterweight removed the arm will start to return to arm rest but stop slightly before the full travel (see photo). If I lift the weight of the A/S arm (with weight still removed) until thread is slack the arm will swing inwards toward spindle as expected.   It seems that I need a lighter counter weight.

My stylus will slide outward off the LP if it doesn't catch the lead-in groove.  I think you didn't set it in quite far enough.  I don't think that has anything to do with A/S.

 

I'm pretty sure you removed the AS weight, not the arm CW, as you seemed to say above.

 

You don't need a "lighter counter (sic) weight."  Rather, you slide the A/S weight in closer to the arm pivot, which will decrease the A/S force. 

 

However --- what cart are you using?  1.43 gm  is almost certainly tracking too light and won't behave well in the groove.  Most carts I have dealt with require at 2.0 gm downforce.  Tracking it too light can cause the stylus to skitter inwards across the grooves.  The purpose of the A/S is to counteract that tendency.

 

So, you need to set the tracking downforce to 2.0 gm and leave the A/S at its midpoint.  Unless, that is, your cart instructions say to set it at a lighter weight such as 1.5 gm.  In that case, set a lower A/S.

 

Larry

I edited post to remove reference to counterweight.

Here is the recommendation from Ortofon for the 2M Black: Tracking force range 1,4-1,7g (14-17 mN)

The point remains that with A/S weight at closest point to the arm pivot too much a/s force is applied.

[LarryC]

Here is the recommendation from Ortofon for the 2M Black: Tracking force range 1,4-1,7g (14-17 mN) The point remains that with A/S weight at closest point to the arm pivot too much a/s force is applied.

I stand corrected on the required tracking force.  The lightest force is not necessarily the best, however, since needle breakup in the groove would wear the record more than a greater force within the recommended limits.  I suggest seeing what happens at 1.7 g., and sliding the A/S one less notch from the middle, the third notch for 1.5 instead of 2.0  fourth notch?).

 

I guess I think the signs you're seeing of too much A/S may not be the right ones, and misleading.  For example, putting the stylus on a blank LP band won't require the same A/S force as when the stylus is working against the friction of being in a groove.

[USNRET]

I spoke with Graham Engineering today and found that I should:

Twist the DIN output connector clockwise (when viewed from top) to change the twist forces acting on the arm wiring. CW should reduce the tendency for arm return.

Add more damping fluid to the bearing wells. I will need to mail check to Graham and buy some syringes of fluid.

Edited February 24, 2015 by USNRET

[LarryC]

Very good!

Edited February 24, 2015 by LarryC

[USNRET]

I need to start selling silicone fluid

Graham Engineering Cobalt Blue Silicone Damping Fluid (2 ml)

*Graham Engineering

Item: GRAHSILICONE Price: $39.99

2ml = 0.06 oz = 40 drops

To be fair this is from a third party, Graham was $12 cheaper but it was going to be a while using USPS back and forth until they got their web site up for sales.

[Schu]

 

there is a counter weight on the memorial arm and indeed, many users of the rega P series (rb700/rb1000 arms) run with anti skate disengaged.

I wonder if we've confused things a tad -- counterweights are used on the back end of TONEARMS, and I don't think one can have a functioning arm without one.  Tracking force is almost always set by sliding that arm's counterweight ("CW") toward or back from the pivot point.  One is trying to set the stylus downforce by calibrating how much heavier to make the stylus end of the arm heavier than the CW end.

 

I mistakenly called the anti skating sliding weight a "counterweight."  My bad.  I should have just called it a "weight."  It sets the amount of A/S force by how far it's slid away from the tonearm pivot.

 

Antiskating is an inexact measurement, and indeed some arms dispense with it.  Most think it's important, and most arms can set some antisakting.  But, skating can be increased by increased friction between the vinyl and the stylus!  

 

 

vpi uses a counter weight to offset skating (some makers use springs and some use friction), therefore anti skating... I thought we were already in that mode (talking about antiskate) therefore saying "counter weight" pertained to that scenario and NOT the tone arm counter weight.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Schu

[LarryC]

vpi uses a counter weight to offset skating (some makers use springs and some use friction), therefore anti skating... I thought we were already in that mode (talking about antiskate) therefore saying "counter weight" pertained to that scenario and NOT the tone arm counter weight.

Hi -- I thought some posts were confusing it with the tonearm counterweight, so I was trying to reduce confusion!  Maybe not...

 

VPI says this about A/S in the JMW-9 Memorial tonearm, and its optional mechanical A/S:

 

VPI has conducted careful listening tests and determined that every tonearm we tried sounded better with its mechanical anti-skating disabled and the tracking force very slightly increased..

VPI has a unique solution to anti-skating: the coiled wire of the JMW Memorial Tonearm acts as a spring and pushes the arm back without affecting the sound quality. You now have the option of installing a mechanical anti-skate for those that want it.  

 

If you try adjusting the anti-skate with a groove less record, you will ruin the twist in the tonearm wire and void your warranty. Do this with the mechanical anti-skate if you want that much anti-skate.

  If additional anti-skate is needed you can go to the mechanical anti-skate available from your dealer. 

 

Also:  jmw memorial tonearm antiskating

Edited February 24, 2015 by LarryC