AutoRouter Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 I just installed A complete Reference Series RF3, RS3, RC3, and RSW10 and the Salesman told me that I should leave them playing at a low volume even when I am not home so they break in properly. Is this for real? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Congratulations on buying a lovely system; Breakin = PWK's Favourite expression BULLSHIT!! SPEAKERS DO NOT REQUIRE BREAKIN 10 minutes of music will cause the tweeter's voice coils to move at least 500,000 times, the mids at least 200,000 times and the woofer{s} at the very least 100,000 times. HOOK 'EM UP AND LOVE 'EM ------------------ It is meet to recall that the Great Green Heron rarely flies upside down in the moonlight - (Foo Ling ca.1900) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundthought Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Hi there. Congrats on your purchase. Your gonna love it. Lynnm is right about driver breakin. There is no solid evidence that it has any benefit to overall loudspeaker performance. However, the wiring inside the speaker will have a burn in time. As with all cables/wires, a small amount of time is needed to allow the jacketing of a wire/cable to "charge". The standard time it takes for this is roughly 30 to 50 hours of operation. After that time, the midbands will appear to have a richer sound and the lower bands will appear to have more definition. Aside from cable burn in, the concept of letting your speakers ease into use, would seem to be a good idea. As lynnm pointed out, a driver will move hundreds of thousands of time in just a short period. That is quite true. But, a few hours of movement fails in comparison to the thousands of hours it's expected to perform. Personally, I do it because, A. I ease every machine I own into use. B. It makes me feel confident that i'm treating my equipment right. C. It is one of those small, petty rituals performed to assure myself of the dedication I have to this passion/hobby. D. If there is a remote possibility that i can get either better sound or longer speaker life from simply letting them play moderately for a couple days, then i'm all for it brother. The ideologies of yesterday are not completely in focus with some of the newer concepts of today. With the understanding of new technology and recording formats, has to come new and innovative ways of thinking. There are many who believed ideas that were later proved wrong. There have only been a few who refused to settle for "the norm" I believe they call those people pioneers, inventors, scientists and the like. PWK was a intelligent pioneer of his time. I do believe he was open minded. It's a brave new world and it's accelerating fast. Never allow your mind to be closed to any possibility. BTW. enjoy your system. ------------------ You should of heard just what I've seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry N.Cruse Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 My CWs sound better every time I press POWER. Speaker break in should take about...30 years. Hook 'em up and punch "em up. can't help myself tc ------------------ tnc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 I have to disagree strongly with lynnm and audioreality here. Speakers most *DEFFINATELY* require some break in to settle into their, uh, "final voice" (?). Whether the sound improves or not during this process is another question, but the sound will absolutely change. There are two primary reasons for this. One has to do with the mechanical break in of the surround and spider. While it's true that, as lynnm said, playing the speaker for a short time will cause these structures to flex many thousands of times, that's not the issue. That's sort of like saying that since a car engine turns at 5,000 rpm that after a few minutes the engine is broken in. It's not the number of times the system flexes that matters, it the duration of time that the system has been flexing. Just like bending a credit card back and forth many times changes the physical characteristics of the plastic along the hinge line (in this case negatively impacting the structural integrity until the card rips in two), continuously flexing the surround and spider will, over a period ranging from a few hours to many hours, depending upon materials, cause the properties of the material to change, slightly, but still change. Another thing that happens as you play the speakers is the capacitors in the crossover form. Most speakers have a least a one, and in some cases, many electrolytic capacitors in the crossover. In electrolytic capacitors the two conductors are different materials. One is just a piece of metal - usually aluminum - and the other is a liquid ectrolyte. When a voltage is applied between them a layer of oxide forms on the metal. This layer acts as the dielectric insulator and is extremely thin (measured in molecules instead of millimeters. The extreme thinness is the reason that electrolytics have capacities so much higher than other types. New capacitors don't have the layer of oxide: it's formed the first time the capacitor is charged. Any time the capacitor is not charged for a long period of time, the oxide layer slowly dissolves leaving aluminum hydroxide in the electrolyte. A new layer is formed when the capacitor is charged again. When you first get your speakers, it's possible they've been sitting idle in their shipping containers for some time, and the dielectric has slightly (very slighty) disolved. Playing the speakers charges the capacitor and re-forms the dielectic. This might happen very quickly (a few minutes), or take many hours. The larger the voltage you're presenting to the capacitor, the faster it will re-form. Thus, the more efficient the speaker, and the lower the voltage you're driving it with to attaint some sound pressure level, the longer it's going to take to re-form the capacitors. If you do a google search on "forming capacitors" or something similar, you'll find a long list of references to this process. Speakers *ABSOLUTELY* will change over time when they're first used, or first used after a long time in storage. Maybe a lot, maybe very slightly, maybe quickly, maybe over an extended period of time, but they *WILL* change. Ray Garrison NOTE: I was once told that being positive is being wrong at the top of your voice. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Speakers don't break-im, your ears do! You slowly get used to the new sound. The insulation of the wires does NOT charge. The signals are AC and change from positive to negative several time a second; any "charging" that might have been done is instantly undone! Tha capicitors do not need "forming". This is urban ledgend (I checked the search engines). If an AlO layer was required for a capacitor to work, and the layer "disolved", at any place, the capacitor would instantly short and fail. The liquid Ray described is, in fact, the dielectric. The popular foil and paper in oil capacitors, whether the aluminum motor-start caps Klipsch used to use or the mythic Jensen Copper foil types, use oil-soaked paper as the dielectric and the oil further serves as a cooling media. These caps certainly do not use AlO for their dielectric, yet are still said, in legend, to need "forming". Bullsh**!! John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 I've never seen any manufacturer warnings to keep them under 5db for the first 500 hours. I take a common sense approach; follow the manufacturers cautionary instructions and just play them like you routinely will. Having good amplification is a definite safeguard. Most damages to speakers occur because receivers or amps are driven to distortion, clipping kills more tweets and midrange drivers than failure due to age. Woofers aren't excluded either. Also keep in mind that a safe listening level will ensure you have adequate hearing to enjoy the pleasures of music well into your golden years. So minimize you and others exposure to excessively loud levels! Wes ------------------ KLIPSCH IS MUSICf> My Systems f>s>c> This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 08-10-2002 at 06:55 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Have you ever seen any literature from Klipsch say its speakers need to be broken in? Speakers do not need to be broken in. They are ready to go right out of the box. Just enjoy them! Easing a machine into use is not always the right thing. I know a guy who bought an airplane about a hundred hours after an engine overhaul. He got a great deal because the previous owner was unhappy about oil consumption and performance. He flew it flat out for 6 hours. Oil comsumption and performance stabilized where it should have been a hundred hours before. Some of the speaker parameters related to surround and spider stiffness may change over time. But it will be such a slow process you will not notice it. Electrolytics are used in crossovers, even some Klipsch Heritage series crossovers. The E2 network used in the last Heresys has a 33 uF electrolytic. A lot of cheap crossovers use them. Many sought after crossovers of the 50s and 60s from the big names like ElectroVoice used them. Don't know what is used in the Reference series, but I wouldn't be suprised to see electrolytics instead of polypropelene for large value caps because of the significant price difference. Reforming can be an issue with electrolytics that have been sitting around for a long time. The big problem is that leakage increases and therefore heat generated within the capacitor. If you run the capacitors close to their ratings before they are reformed, you risk destroying them. Bringing the voltage up slowly in a controlled manner avoids this. Relatively fresh electrolytics like one would find in a new set of speakers do not need any special care. Even when the speakers have sat for years, electrolytics in crossovers ought to reform just fine on their own in a normal listening environment because you will seldom be pushing their limits. I suppose it could be a problem with a pro sound application though. I don't think I will comment on wire break in... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 NO!!! NOT AGAIN!!! Ditto on the first post. Done, next!!! ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! For JBL related subjects and more fun, click: http://www.audioheritage.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted August 11, 2002 Share Posted August 11, 2002 Klipsch has stated that they test their speakers in house before shipping. It would seem this testing would break them in... if there were such a thing. I think speaker break-in, and the perceived improvement, is purely psycho-acoustics at work, and a darn fine example of it, frankly. Why is it that when someone talks about breaking in speakers or burning in wire, capacitors etc. the subsequent change in sound is *always* a good one??? Mace This message has been edited by mace on 08-11-2002 at 10:06 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundthought Posted August 11, 2002 Share Posted August 11, 2002 Man, tough crowd. "Being positive is being wrong at the top of your voice." I like that saying. Another good one is "One mans' trash is another mans' treasure." I would like proof that suspensions don't change in elastisity or that cable induction/resistance isn't altered within the first 50hrs of operation? Hey, did I mention anything about molecular realignment inside speaker cable? This message has been edited by Audioreality on 08-11-2002 at 12:56 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted August 11, 2002 Share Posted August 11, 2002 JBL Pro states that the 2226 woofer is stable after 2 hours at full power and they imply it's stable much sooner than that. As this is a no-nonsense company with a body of knowledge dating back to the 1920s and that sells speakers as tools to be sold to no-nonsense users of these tools I tend to believe them over some audiophile's notions. If you wanted to know something about framing hammers would you ask a guy who putzs with home improvements on weekends or a carpenter? www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundthought Posted August 11, 2002 Share Posted August 11, 2002 Estwing 20oz. My personal favorite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted August 11, 2002 Share Posted August 11, 2002 I have learned many a lesson...one I stick with is when in doubt stick with Ray! My RB5s were almost painful during the first 20 hours of service. After 25 years of listening I do not think I could have "gotten used to the new sound" in 20 hours. I did most of the break in time all night for 2 weeks when I was not listening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted August 11, 2002 Share Posted August 11, 2002 Tom, I agree. JBL Pro IS the speakers, they know anything there is to be known, and then some. I am behind that statement!!! So are my 2, 2226J woofers! ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! For JBL related subjects and more fun, click: http://www.audioheritage.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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