rafal_poland Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Hello the whole Klipsch Community! Greetings from Poland! Kindly ask for your advice... I've just start to rebuild my audio system. Altec 19 and GM70 tube amps have just left the building. Wonderful bass from the paper woofer, nice imaging but this shouty, ringing horn... I have done a lot to minimize this effect but finally gave up... There are not so many interesting offers of wonderful classic vintage speakers here in Poland (transport from US is very, very expensive). In fact there is one guy (collector / seller) who offers quite wide range of speakers. I plan my trip to listen to the: Klipsch Cornwall II Urei 813a JBL 4343 (two times higher price as the other ones) Before the listening session I'd like to know theoretically (taking into account my room characteristics, kind of music I listen to) their pros and cons. Please share with your opinions. Please also look at the attached images (sorry for the quality...). I checked that woofer in Cornwall II should be K-34-E. Not sure if this one looks like the proper. Gear Transport: Pioneer PDS 901 DAC: Lampizator Big 7 Amp: will be chosen My Room17,5' x 20'Acoustically treated - front and side walls / corners / ceiling Music70's rock (Led Zep, Sabs, Allmans, King Crimson, Zappa, etc.) // blues // jazz - 70%Modern rock // blues // jazz - 30% Thank you very much in advance for any feedback, suggestions and advice. Rafal /Poland/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricktate Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Hi .....welcome. I am not sure if you will like the Cornwalls but only way to tell is listen to them. I would bring music you like. I use to have a pair of those loved them but the small mid range horn could not keep up with my LaScalas but other than that they were good. How much would you have to pay for the Corns your looking at? Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnthang Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 In my biased opinion, go for the cornwalls. If you hear something better, and I doubt you will ,then use your best judgment. Here is some info that you might find helpful. (http://files.computeraudiophile.com/2013/1202/Klipsch_Cornwall_Test_Report.pdf) in closing BUY THE KLIPSCH!!! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) Before the listening session I'd like to know theoretically (taking into account my room characteristics, kind of music I listen to) their pros and cons. Please share with your opinions. I'd pay particular attention to that UREI 813A and its near-point-source performance. The crossover network is the typical weak spot, so you might ask about that. This is the loudspeaker type that Doug Sax used for many years at The Mastering Lab in Los Angeles and the crossover he used was actually redesigned by his brother - Sherwood. The next that I'd recommend is the Cornwall. The room that you show, above, is pretty cluttered and those CWIIs aren't near the corners of the room, unobstructed within 3-4 feet all around them. This will yield the best performance, IMHO. If there is no absorbent material to place on the top of the loudspeaker, I'd take a very pair of towels to be placed on top - as this will soften the midrange perception by a significant level--same thing for the floor if it is hard - place soft material down within 3-4 feet on the woofer. The JBL is a 4-way. Its weakness will be the cone midrange at higher SPL - it will begin to sound opaque, especially during drum transients. Otherwise, it will probably sound the best at first listen. I actually do not recommend it, for I believe that you will eventually tire of its sound over time. YMMV. I'd recommend a fairly good amplifier of 20-30 w/channel, and open them up (all three types) with your favorite music, then listen for clarity and balance. If the CWII sounds "honky" in the midrange then add more absorption material on top and on the floor until it balances. This is the well known "collapsing polar" midrange characteristic that must be taken into account when integrating into your room. Chris Edited May 31, 2015 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Amp: will be chosen My Room 17,5' x 20' Acoustically treated - front and side walls / corners / ceiling Music 70's rock (Led Zep, Sabs, Allmans, King Crimson, Zappa, etc.) // blues // jazz - 70% Modern rock // blues // jazz - 30% Your room is good on x-y dimensions. Can you tell us the height of the ceiling? And what kind of acoustic treatments are you using? Are these all absorption panels, or do they include diffusion? The amplifier you choose will have a fairly significant effect on the performance of any of these loudspeaker types. Most people here will recommend tube (valve) type, but I recommend an amplifier that has fewer gain stages than typical SS amplifiers and very low amount of global feedback. I actually recommend more than 10 w/channel, with 30-40 w/channel being sufficient with these type of loudspeakers. Some people like the high output impedance effects of tube amplifiers without global feedback--I do not, however. Recommend using an amplifier having less than 0.5 ohm output impedance on the 4-ohm tap if using tube type. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) I am afraid you may be going In the wrong direction. I have owned Cornwalls and I liked them. However, if you found the mids on the Altec 19 to be "shouty", then the Cornwalls will probably be a disappointment. The Altec 19 is a better speaker than the Cornwall, especially in the mid-range. I know it is difficult to audition American speakers in Europe, but in this case it would be a wse thing to do. Good luck, -Tom Edited May 31, 2015 by PrestonTom 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) However, if you found the mids on the Altec 19 to be "shouty", then the Cornwalls will probably be a disappointment. The Altec 19 is a better speaker than the Cornwall, especially in the mid-range. Agreed, but how they are integrated into the room can have a fairly large effect on this--almost as much as low bass performance. I'd keep an open mind, and I also will personally double up on the recommendation to attenuate near field reflections around the CWII midrange horn. The UREI and JBL will also probably respond well to reduction in near field reflectors (i.e., an implementation of an RFZ room setup). The best setup that I'd recommend would be a K-402 with a good wide-band compression driver attached, followed by a good horn-loaded bass bin - like a Jubilee or a Khorn--in order to be certain to beat an Altec Model 19. However, these are not "drop-in solutions" like the above loudspeaker types tend to be - and require some amount of room placement and high quality crossover/EQ like an active digital loudspeaker processor. Chris Edited May 31, 2015 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 I always love the recommendation of a Jubilee bass bin and K-402 horn. That combination is tough to beat (I know ....). I am curious about how much effort the OP originally went through to get the Altecs to sound there best ( I am referring to room acoustics and not messing with electronics). However, we need to remember that shipping to central Europe, fees, taxes etc can really add up. I doubt that there is much Klipsch in any form on the used market over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafal_poland Posted May 31, 2015 Author Share Posted May 31, 2015 Thanks to everyone for your informative feedback. I'd pay particular attention to that UREI 813A and its near-point-source performance. By the way, are there any key differences in SQ between 813A and 813C (I know specs - Altec vs JBL)? Can you tell us the height of the ceiling? And what kind of acoustic treatments are you using? Are these all absorption panels, or do they include diffusion? This height is 9'. Here find some photos of my last system. Diffusors on the front wall, first reflection panels (creme color box just close the door and the opposite side). Whats not on the pictures - ceiling acoustic treatments (7' x 7') + bass traps at the back corners of the room. All was measured and dedicated for my room. However, if you found the mids on the Altec 19 to be "shouty" Thats because my English... Mids were absolutely w o n d e r f u l. I would refer only to the highs. And only when loud listening. That was unpleasant. Hard / heavy rock - ear bleeding, pins in my ears (dont know how to express it better). I realize that modern production / mastering standards are rather awfull but yeah... I'm still using transport / DAC. Turntable is still to come... PS. Correct me when I"m wrong but Altec mid-woofer is responsible even up to 1200Hz. Honestly speaking, I'll be very happy to find something close to the Altec 19 bass and mids but rather smoother highs. Cornwall II // JBL 4343 // Urei 813A - need to check them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) Nice room! I recommend trying the loudspeakers in the corners a bit more, and placing an absorption panel on the side wall and on the front wall next to loudspeakers, centered at midrange horn mouth level. Here is a link that discusses the differences: http://www.hostboard.com/forums/f700/82792-urei-813-replacement-speakers.html#post1289607 Here is a link to the UREI 813A manual: http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Vintage%20JBL-UREI%20Electronics/UREI-813A.pdf (corrected link) ...and the 813C manual: http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Vintage%20JBL-UREI%20Electronics/UREI811C~813C~815C.pdf ...from that thread. It looks like "C"'s had tighter quality controls on the woofers after JBL bought UREI in the early/mid 1980s. Note the emphasis on "time alignment". This is a really big deal - and your ears will tell you, too. Chris Edited May 31, 2015 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Mids were absolutely w o n d e r f u l. I would refer only to the highs. And only when loud listening. That was unpleasant. Hard / heavy rock - ear bleeding, pins in my ears (don't know how to express it better). I realize that modern production / mastering standards are rather awful but yeah... I'm still using transport / DAC. Turntable is still to come... PS. Correct me when I"m wrong but Altec mid-woofer is responsible even up to 1200Hz. 1500 Hz by at least one source (original crossover). Looks like there is a lot of "home brew" and thrid party efforts on the crossovers. Here is a thread that addresses the "ear bleed" of your music, including the missing bass octave(s) that are so common: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/155096-the-missing-octaves-audacity-remastering-to-restore-tracks/ Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted May 31, 2015 Moderators Share Posted May 31, 2015 Witaj, Witamy na Forum Klipsch. Mam nadzieję znaleźć odpowiedzi, których szukasz tutaj, jak już można powiedzieć, istnieje wiele tu ludzie wiedzą, że mogą na ogół odpowiedzi na wszelkie pytania związane z Klipsch. Ponownie Witamy! Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 I wouldn't even bother auditioning the JBL 4343, it has real problems (crossover related). The later 813 had a JBL woofer (E145 varient), and are quite good. The transition from Altec to JBL had PAS woofers, and are OK. I really like the Cornwall II with the wires soldered to the drivers (dangerous to the tweeter if you can't solder). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juniper Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 I have had 2 sets of cornwalls and own M19's, the 19 is a much better speaker but far less forgiving of recordings than Cornwalls. The 19's present a much bigger, cleaner, soundstage in my space. You may want to tells us what drivers are in your 19's and diaphragms. People blow up speakers sometimes, and I bet it is hard to get original Altec parts in Poland. Also you may want to check the caps in your crossovers they tend to drift a lot, and look up "ground lug mod" over on the Altec board. Hope some of this helps.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricktate Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 I was about to say that the Altecs crossovers from my experience working on friends speakers are a joke . It could be all you needed was to rebuild the crossovers. But since you already got them out the door I guess your ready to try new things. I think you will like the cornwalls but they need to be further apart if you can do that. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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