Modding Synergy's for upgrade

[rebuy]

I didn't use a kit or a design.
I did a lot of reading and put a lot of thought
into using the speakers I have and making them better.
I'm an old guy and been messing with audio for a long time.
I'm not nearly as smart as others on the forum but I know what
sounds good to me.
I bought the Synergy--after reading some reviews and got them
for a very low price.
I did like the sound but really thought they could be better.
So I sent off my crossovers and had 2 parts replaced on the boards. These parts were for the high end.
The other Radial cap on the board are for the shunt and
do not affect the sound of the speaker--so it was NOT replaced.
I installed the new crossovers and they were OK. Not as good as I had hoped for---It was the tweeter that Klipsch uses that were holding back the sound these speakers are capable of producing.
If you read my install story about the size of compression driver choices I had to choose from--it was very limited--due to cabinet space and Horn Material that Klipsch uses in these speakers.
If you're considering doing this and you have the same limitations for size that I had there is another driver you can use---it handles less power--30 watts--but crosses over lower and is made by PRV--PARTS EXPRESS NUMBER--294-2822.
30 OR 50 WATTS TO A TWEETER--is a lot of power.
I run my speakers with a 50 Watt--Harman Kardon AVR
and they get Very Loud.
Besides--these drivers are inexpensive--so if you blow one
the replacement cost is not a deal killer.

After I installed the Eminence into my speakers
I could not believe what a difference it made in the overall
sound--It's like having a new set of speakers.
I still thought the mid's were a little thin and the speaker
a little boomy--that's when I did the redamping.
You gotta be careful doing the redampimg so you don't KILL
the sound of the speaker you like--You're just trying to
bring out the best from the drivers you have.
I used a small amout of material--placed where I thought--there's me thinking again--where I thought it would do the most good.
It took "The Boom" out while leaving the Bass in and it really brought out the Midrange--All in all--These speakers are NOW
very well "balanced"--They still have Klipsch Big Sound but are Cleaner and have much more sound Texture.
They sound so good--I don't even use Bass or Treble--to me they sound that balanced.
I can't say this will work for you--I don't know you system or speakers--I do know it really worked for me.
If you have any other questions--I'll be glad to try and help

[rebuy]

The Synergy are the Only Klipsch Speakers I have owned.

Dean was very nice in upgrading the Very Cheap Crossovers Klipsch used.

In all fairness to Klipsch--Their parts are not any worse than some other speaker builders

like Infinity use use 5 cent capacitors to save on cost.

Dean upgraded me with Mills resistors and Dayton 1% Polypropylene Caps.

 

I didn't notice--that much of a difference at first--and I was allowing for cap burn in

and a chance to break these parts in.  The horn driver in a Synergy and probably

the Best Buy Klipsch Speakers---are a 1 inch dome driver--mated to the horn.

 

The Klipsch LTS 1 Inch dome driver was not good enough to deliver the sound I wanted

and when you tried to push the "high end sound---AKA--AIR" it became screechy and sharp.

It really was unlistenable--to me.

 

So I removed a horn from the cabinet--drove to Parts Express--and consulted with a guy

and we looked at all sorts of horn drivers and horn lenses that I might have used.

 

My horn lense is about 4&3/16 inch square and so if I were to use a "Real Compression Driver"

4 inches was the limit for the circumfrence of any driver.  Weight was the other factor because

PE did not have any Horns that would fit the Synergy without mods to the cabinets. Also the

cheaper Horn material Klipsch uses for the Synergy was a factor--would it support the weight of

a real compression driver? 

 

I ended up buying an Eminence 1" HF Titanium Horn Driver

Let me tell you--My Synergy's sound Great.

With Dean's upgrade and the new horn drivers--These couldn't sound any better.

[tastyratz]

See that's exactly what I am trying to improve, the high end fidelity. It's what got me so sold on klipsch so many years ago. I was a lot more limited and less experienced when I got them, and now these speakers have probably 13 years under their belt. The f2 is almost exactly the same as the f20 from what I can find minus an improved crossover that slightly increases sensitivity. The f20 was the replacement for the f2 in the later generation. I'm not afraid of "bright". I love the full range singing accurately where others might call it harsh on the ears.
I recently replaced my old sub10 with a pair of rythmic f12's which tightened things up massively and rejuvinated the old audiophile hunger quest.

What I have been picking out lately and wanting to improve has been the clarity of dialog, that momentary shhhh sound in place of an S that almost sounds like the microphone is held too close to the mouth.
I do well for auditory tests and have trained my hearing to really pick at the highs so the upper range nuances actually jump at me (while anyone else who visits thinks I'm crazy).


So if I take it right, you did not do the crossover work yourself but just sent off to dean, but you did exactly what I was thinking which was dayton 1%'s and mills resistors. I was also looking to see if more elaborate crossover networks for other high end klipsch speakers had a similar cross point which might be buildable from scratch on a board for cheap as well.


I saw your selection process and some of the things you went through, too bad you didn't do a build thread! I'm in similar shoes as you. I thought about jumping to some references but another aluminum lts tweeter feels like a lateral move for what I'm looking to improve and the copper spun doesn't seem like it's bringing anything to the table over the IMG woofers... I probably benefit from the smaller woofers -especially since I'm not going full range with these and let my new sub's handle anything low.


Any gotchas with design/disassembly? What was your labor time investment (especially just to swap the tweeter)?

Did you ever find any information on the old tweeters? did you do or find any measurements?

 

Did you have to buy one of their adapters to fit it to your horn? I saw people did on other klipsch models.

 

Did you end up doing an Lpad on them or straight swap?

 

When you said you had the crossovers modified, did you change the cross frequency?
I know you were looking at reference RF3 crossovers and it sounded like you did a straight swap but I just wanted to double check.

The eminence is only power rated down to 2.5khz. The frequency response chart nosedives 10db around 1400 so it's in range of faithful reproduction... more that driving them from 1600 up is asking for a lot more from them.
I'm still trying to do more reading on DIY audio. I only ever spent time looking into building subwoofers. those tweeters look like they will be fine driven on a 120w amplifier at or slightly above reference levels. Your right 50w is a lot in speaker design for a tweeter. At 30 bucks a pop if it's a quick exchange maybe I just won't care either way.

 

Did you have more progress pictures of your changes that would do well in this thread? I know it's heresy (cue drums) to be modding our inexpensive speakers here in general but there may be more people than I who have seen this thread and found themselves interested.

 

If I do this though, I'll pick up a umik-1 and do some before and afters. I was already planning to use REW and a minidsp to balance my 2 subs and my transducer. I'll try to find another measurement program that can pick up distortion from reference. Obviously what your ear prefers is king but scientific data makes for measurable change.

 

 

Thanks so much for sharing, you might have saved me some real money and I'll get some satisfaction for the change.

 

Hell,

if these work out and it's works out enough maybe I will just do the same thing to my f2's as my c2 & b2's for my full system (provided the horns are similar and I am even able to of course).

Edited April 15, 2016 by tastyratz

[rebuy]

I've had a hard time transferring these pictures but I'll show you what I have

[rebuy]

The hole for the horn is 1 inch--smaller than the predrilled holes in the adapter plate.

To install any drivers on these horns and use the Synergy Horn mounting holes--which I used

you will need to drill holes into the mounting plate right against the Hole Adapter Plate.

Pretty Easy to do--I used a drill and a dremel. The dremel to make a space so the screw head

can seat next to the adapter housing without being thrown off and seating crooked.

[tastyratz]

Awesome! Thanks for sharing that.

That looks just like stock with upgraded parts. It's cheap and easy enough to do I might just do it myself for completion and the $20 parts investment.

I see a few adapter plates people mentioned on the forum and I also see Eminence makes their own. Do you happen to remember which ones you went with on those pictures?

 

Is it this one? http://www.parts-express.com/selenium-adf25-25-horn-adapter--264-322

I went home at lunch and did some deconstruction for good measure as well as take a slew of pictures to collect for later.

The B2 uses a 3/4 instead of 1in and totally different horn with different bolt pattern, not easily exchanged. Unfortunately that's probably going to limit me from doing anything to those, I might just hock them and find another used pair of f2's on CL to mod later if I find myself particularly moved by the changes. 3/4 selection shrinks significantly.


The C2 housing is entirely cast ABS plastic, packed pretty full with foam, and the drivers in it have a plastic basket. Pretty thin plastic, might benefit from some mass (like a spray undercoat or something like that)
The crossover is attached on the back, marked C2 and part #11665.

The tweeter is # k-138 160748 and looks like it's confirmed used in the F2, F3, B3, C2, C3, SLX.
It's mounted with 3 screws to the horn throat.

The horns have a foam gasket and they are all held on with M3 hex cap screws.
 

The F2 base has some egg crate foam in them on the bottom. I havent gotten fully into them to see if there is any more or not...

 

I'll have to keep getting more into it and start placing orders...

Edited April 15, 2016 by tastyratz

[rebuy]

STOCK CROSSOVER

Edited April 15, 2016 by rebuy

[The History Kid]

Just wanted to point out a few things, so people don't get the wrong idea here...

 

Very Cheap Crossovers Klipsch used.

In all fairness to Klipsch--Their parts are not any worse than some other speaker builders

Please also understand that you bought entry level Klipsch speakers that were mass produced for big box stores. They are not by any means a true representation of Klipsch engineering. I'm not saying that the Xovers in the upper tiers of Klipsch speakers are "the best", but you need to acknowledge that they're very cheap for a reason. The speaker itself is designed very cheap and designed simply for exposing people to the brand, not to represent the actual Klipsch design.

 

The horn driver in a Synergy and probably

the Best Buy Klipsch Speakers---are a 1 inch dome driver--mated to the horn.

Synergy is/was the Best Buy Klipsch speaker until they decided to change the name to Icon and Reference. First generation Synergy speakers tended fwik/imo to outperform their later counter parts. The SF-3 stock could outperform the F-20 stock. All the same, the W, X, and Y Icons outperform any of the other Icons that were in Best Buy's inventory. Again, these are speakers designed for big box stores for the sake of spreading brand awareness.

Just wanted to make sure that point was presented.

All that being said, it is very cool that you were able to perform noticeable upgrades to the speaker. It stands to show that just about any speaker can be modified and updated if given the right parts and resources. Might spur on my thoughts of upgrading my RF-3's imminently.

Edited April 15, 2016 by IbizaFlame

[rebuy]

Yes--that is the horn adapter I used--There are six circles on the adapter, not holes

if you space the out to every other one the line up perfectly to the holes in a Synergy Horn

except the holes have to be drilled right against the throat of the threaded part to fit the horn.

[tastyratz]

Excellent. I'll order the same adapter.

 

Looking at your crossover compared to mine (at least in the c2) I am going to have to share the picture when I get a chance. I have what looks like 1 electrolytic and maybe even 1x poly from the factory. I wonder if the 2 series had a poly cap and the 20 series went to electrolytic. If that's the case maybe I just dump the sand cast resistor when it comes to crossover time and leave the caps alone.

[rebuy]

Just wanted to point out a few things, so people don't get the wrong idea here...

 

Very Cheap Crossovers Klipsch used.

In all fairness to Klipsch--Their parts are not any worse than some other speaker builders

Please also understand that you bought entry level Klipsch speakers that were mass produced for big box stores. They are not by any means a true representation of Klipsch engineering. I'm not saying that the Xovers in the upper tiers of Klipsch speakers are "the best", but you need to acknowledge that they're very cheap for a reason. The speaker itself is designed very cheap and designed simply for exposing people to the brand, not to represent the actual Klipsch design.

The horn driver in a Synergy and probably

the Best Buy Klipsch Speakers---are a 1 inch dome driver--mated to the horn.

Synergy is/was the Best Buy Klipsch speaker until they decided to change the name to Icon and Reference. First generation Synergy speakers tended fwik/imo to outperform their later counter parts. The SF-3 stock could outperform the F-20 stock. All the same, the W, X, and Y Icons outperform any of the other Icons that were in Best Buy's inventory. Again, these are speakers designed for big box stores for the sake of spreading brand awareness.

Just wanted to make sure that point was presented.

 

I thought I was being "Fair" to Klipsch in pointing out that many speaker builders use componets like the componets

used in the Synergy Line.  If you look inside many speakers--such as the Infinity Primus--you'll find the same "quality"

as used in a Synergy--that is why I said what I said---I wasn't bashing Klipsch, they seen to be on par with other speaker makers

of the day--but they are all subpar where the crossover is concerned. Keeping in mind the "retail price" for these speakers

is very close to the retail of Reference Klipsch.

 

I just happened to buy mine for almost 70% off retail so I didn't really have a lot invested into them.

Edited April 15, 2016 by rebuy

[The History Kid]

Current Reference Klipsch is Icon is Synergy.

The RF and RP lines were designed differently from the current "reference."

[rebuy]

Current Reference Klipsch is Icon is Synergy.

The RF and RP lines were designed differently from the current "reference."

It's a little confusing--hahahaha

[rebuy]

Current Reference Klipsch is Icon is Synergy.

The RF and RP lines were designed differently from the current "reference."

As I said it is confusing and when reading specks and other info

I didn't want to make a Verticle Jump.

I could not justify spending the money.

I think I made the right choice and now I don't need to

spend money I cannot afford to lose.

When I buy a house--maybe I'll go Heritage but until then......

[tastyratz]

I'm in the same boat. I feel like I would need to spend a LOT to make a measurable jump, but this tweeter likely classes with much more expensive Klipsch speakers. Since my synergy woofers are just on mid duty and I have great sub's handling extension I think the return on investment of going rfII over a high quality titanium replacement is probably much harder to justify.

The smaller woofer working low stress as a mid is probably in my favor here.

Eminence makes nice stuff and I see people dropping this same tweeter as upgrades into their heresy's or cornwalls...

 

Maybe after some point a more refined crossover network would be worth a thought as well.

Edited April 15, 2016 by tastyratz

[yamahaSHO]

Derrick beat me to it again. You could probably get $100 or so out of those Synergies and for $200 you could find a pair of RF-62s, 25s or 3s.

If the high end is the issue, I don't think upping your xover a few hundred hertz will solve all of the issues. Part of the problem is the aluminum driver.

Where can I find a clean set of RF-62's for $200?  I'll buy them regardless of need at that price.  

[rebuy]

I'm in the same boat. I feel like I would need to spend a LOT to make a measurable jump, but this tweeter likely classes with much more expensive Klipsch speakers. Since my synergy woofers are just on mid duty and I have great sub's handling extension I think the return on investment of going rfII over a high quality titanium replacement is probably much harder to justify.

The smaller woofer working low stress as a mid is probably in my favor here.

Eminence makes nice stuff and I see people dropping this same tweeter as upgrades into their heresy's or cornwalls...

 

Maybe after some point a more refined crossover network would be worth a thought as well.

After opening them up--take a look at the insulation material -- mine were underdamped and made the speakers too boomy.

2 or 3 feet of damping material--placed properly can and should make a world of difference in the sound.

[tastyratz]

ya know, I'm looking at the response charts of the PRV D280TI-S and they look a lot flatter compared to the eminence. It's bigger, but I wonder if I put it in at an angle first  if I can stuff that in the cabinet.

I'm going to have to do some close measuring later. It's only $10 more than the eminence...

[rebuy]

ya know, I'm looking at the response charts of the PRV D280TI-S and they look a lot flatter compared to the eminence. It's bigger, but I wonder if I put it in at an angle first  if I can stuff that in the cabinet.

I'm going to have to do some close measuring later. It's only $10 more than the eminence...

I had 4 inches to play with--I was not going to cut into the cabinets and weight is another factor to consider. Your mounting holes are the holes used for a LIGHTWEIGHT LTS Tweeter. You go too heavy and the horn might not be able to support the weight of the driver. The driver you're looking at was way too big for my cabinet.

Just food for thought.

Edited April 15, 2016 by rebuy

[tastyratz]

I think you're right. I have 4 1/8in to play with in the f2, plenty more room in the c2 center. DAMN! oh that has me bummed because I perked up when I saw that spec sheet. The weight wasn't worrying me these horns have ribbing and would be prob fine with 3lbs vs 2lbs. 3/16  clearance issue SO CLOSE!

 

These cabinets look like 1/2in mdf. I'm up in the air if I am willing to cut a stripe down the center to notch and fit the better tweeter.

 

D230TI is definitely not as flat or nice looking as the D280TI. I looked at every other drivers chart and the only one close was the 5+in dayton and that is just not happening.

 

 

 

I started an album with my pictures I took earlier.

 

I have a good amount of foam in these although it's just loose packed on 2 sides.