avguytx Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Anyone out there know the dimensions of the K-500 horns used in the Belle? Was looking for length, width and depth if possible. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) 7 beat me to it. The mouth is 3.75 inches tall by 11.0 inches wide, or close to those. This is not counting the flange. The total depth is 15.25 inches overall or close to it. There is threading to accept the spin on driver. The depth of that is about 0.5 inches. I assume you're going to build something to mimic the K-500. If so, please post pictures. WMcD Edited November 28, 2015 by William F. Gil McDermott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 Building may be an option but I had found some Beta Sound horns with the dimensions below. They would appear to be too small for Belle's...more like Heresy. Height: 5" Width: 11-1/2" Depth: 10-3/4" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-h6512-6-1-2-x-12-waveguide-1-3-8--18-tpi--270-318#lblProductDetails Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted November 29, 2015 Author Share Posted November 29, 2015 Those will work? Aren't they too short in the throat length compared to the K-400 and 500? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 If you look at the K-510 horn, it's about 1/3 the length of the K-500, but has (IMO) much better acoustic characteristics. The issue that many focus on is horn length, while I'm finding that it really is more related to mouth size (vertical, horizontal) and the absence of curved walls in the horn's throat area--that are the distinguishing features that sound better. Besides, you can't go wrong for $15 to try one. Note that you'll need to EQ any controlled directivity horn (like the K-510), but that 's pretty easy nowadays with virtually any AVR or AVP with room correction software that has any amount of control authority range. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-h6512-6-1-2-x-12-waveguide-1-3-8--18-tpi--270-318#lblProductDetails You can use this but it will require some form of EQ. Had one, measured it, sent it back because I found something more usable for my application at the time. It is very good for the prices but you gotta know what you are doing with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 I found something more usable for my application at the time. Okay Claude, you can't get off that easily - please explain. Chris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 (edited) In Claude's absence, I'll explain a little more about the type of horn that I linked above and the rationale. I assume that either you don't have K-500 horns (as in you're building DIY Belles) or you want better performance than the K-500s, in either case, you need two midrange horns for a Belle-sized horn-loaded loudspeaker. My experience has shown that the K-510 is far superior to the K-500s in terms of neutrality of sound and naturalness, as well as how it handles its collapsing polar excess energy below the 1700 Hz loss of vertical pattern control that the K-500 experiences. This excess vertically polarized acoustic energy is the problem. The $15 Dayton Audio horn linked above is about the closest thing to a K-510 that I've seen (except having a 1" diameter throat that can accept K-55 drivers instead, rather than a 2" throat of the K-510 requiring 2" throat drivers or a 1" to 2" throat expander with 1" drivers). It's straight-sided, has no diffraction slots, has 90 x 50 degrees polar coverage angles, and a good flare at the mouth of the horn to something much more like a tractrix flare (90 degrees, or flat) vs. an exponential flare, like the K-500 has. This is important in terms of how the horn sounds and performs close to its LF cutoff. The horn is also about 1/2 to 1/3 the depth of a fully developed exponential horn. All these things are significant advantages. The only requirement is that you must EQ the midrange. This isn't difficult to do extremely well nowadays (unlike during PWK's time). YMMV. Chris Edited November 29, 2015 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted November 29, 2015 Author Share Posted November 29, 2015 Chris. I appreciate your input on the various horns. You guys are far more knowledgeable than me when it comes to the horns therefore I rely on your input. I had seen these Atlas drivers and Beta Sound horns on ebay at a reasonable price which is what got me to pondering I'd they'd work. Not much info on Beta Sounds out there other than they were out of Dallas and made some rather cool cabinets with similarities to Klipsch drivers. http://m.ebay.com/itm/Atlas-Sound-PD-5VH-Model-K-55-V-With-Beta-Horns-/141835902094?nav=WATCHING_ACTIVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/52908-k-500-versus-k-400-horns/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Chris. I appreciate your input on the various horns. You guys are far more knowledgeable than me when it comes to the horns therefore I rely on your input. I had seen these Atlas drivers and Beta Sound horns on ebay at a reasonable price which is what got me to pondering I'd they'd work. Not much info on Beta Sounds out there other than they were out of Dallas and made some rather cool cabinets with similarities to Klipsch drivers. http://m.ebay.com/itm/Atlas-Sound-PD-5VH-Model-K-55-V-With-Beta-Horns-/141835902094?nav=WATCHING_ACTIVE Those look like knockoffs of K-500s or even K-400s. The drivers are Atlas, which is/was the source for K-55 drivers. They are exponential horns with collapsing polars--a function of the limited height of the exponential horn's mouth. The original design for those horns came from Jensen (the firm named for the guy that invented the cone-type driver at Bell Labs in the 1920s). PWK visited them in the very early 1960s, and allegedly pulled the horn from out of the trash. and asked the Jensen chief engineer if he could keep it for his own needs. The rest is history, as they say. The claim to fame for the K-400 and its derivatives is that it requires essentially no equalization from 400 Hz up to about 4500 Hz via the collapsing polars trick. The price for that is extra acoustic energy deposited on your ceiling and floor between 400 Hz and 1700 Hz. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted November 29, 2015 Author Share Posted November 29, 2015 Those look like knockoffs of K-500s or even K-400s. The drivers are Atlas, which is/was the source for K-55 drivers. They are exponential horns with collapsing polars--a function of the limited height of the exponential horn's mouth. Thanks for the info. So, does that make these contenders for my Belle project in using those horns or maybe get those drivers/horns and use the Parts Express horn to start? I can always rebuild the baffle plate for the mid/tweeter if (when) things change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 The Beta horns appear to be copies of the K-600 horn found in the Klipsch Cornwall. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted November 29, 2015 Author Share Posted November 29, 2015 That's the main thing I was wondering about. If the horn would go low enough in frequency to mate up with the K-33 woofer. 600Hz would be too high right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 (edited) 600Hz would be too high right? If you're using a Belle bass bin then 600 Hz isn't too high in terms of on-axis frequency response, However, the horizontal polar coverage starts getting pretty narrow up there relative to the K-500 horizontal horn coverage--due to the two bass bin horn mouths interacting with each other. It's better to cross at 450 Hz with respect to the polars. The K-55 drivers will go down to 400 Hz crossover point. The K-500 horn will begin to lose on-axis frequency response below about 450 Hz due to the limited width of the horn's mouth. The K-600 horn will begin to lose FR on-axis below about 600 Hz, etc., due to the loss of control of its horizontal polars at that point. Chris Edited November 29, 2015 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 You guys are just way too smart... And I'm thankful for that fact, too. I may just give those Atlas drivers and horns a try along with some K-77/T-35 tweeters and the K-33 woofers and go from there. They aren't crazy expensive. I'm just having to keep this priced reasonably as much as I'd like to go over the top...I just can't. My hearing above 12k isn't great and tinnitus doesn't make it any better. There's a point of diminishing return, for me. I've got the wood ready but we've had crazy rain here in Arkansas lately so haven't been able to start cutting yet. Oh, and the Holidays put a damper on those plans, too. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted December 18, 2015 Author Share Posted December 18, 2015 Back to the Belle building again as I'm going to order more parts. Again, as much as I'd love to go hog wild on drivers and horns, I just can't...I'm having to be economical to start. I've also thought about the JBL Selenium D250-X/HM25-25 combo for the midrange as it's reasonable and seems to get favorable reviews. But, I need horn opinions, of course. I'll be sitting about 12 feet away from these ran off of a 10wpc tube amp. Mid driver http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/D250-X_SpecSheet.pdf Horn https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/HM25-25_SpecSheet.pdf Maybe the D202ti tweeter or Crites CT120 or 125's. Still undecided. For sure going with K-33 woofers; could still work with K-55 and K-77 but most seemed to get changed out for something else. Thus, the idea of going Selenium. Thoughts and opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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