Cornwall Sound Question

[bdwg]

Hello,

 

I just purchased a pair of Cornwalls with the B3 crossover, 1983 I believe. I bought them very spur of the moment from a shop as my wife was with me and gave me the ok (I am still in shock she said yes to be honest). Anyway, I hooked them up to my vintage mac gear (tube preamp) that I recently recaped and they sound 1000x better than my previous pair of speakers. The high end could bring tears to your eyes, but I am having some problems with the bass sound. Its there and its clean, but it just doesn't seem to be in balance with the levels of the high end. I want to keep turning up the sound to bring the bass out, but obviously that turns up everything (the bass preamp adjustment also doesn't fit my tastes). Maybe I am just not used to such high end speakers, but in a way my chest kind of feels empty when listing because i want some more low end to balance with the high end. So I was wondering if this was typical of the Cornwalls, if a recap would help, if I should maybe do a remod and add some resistance, or if I am just an amateur and need to appreciate real speakers.... Thanks for the input!

[WMcD]

Welcome to the forum. We all here hope you will continue your participation.

The CW enjoys an excellent reputation as a balanced speaker.

Overall, my guess is that you've got a somewhat "live" room accentuating the treble and not supporting the bass. Do you have hard floors without carpet?

I'd suggest moving the units to the corners as far as possible, which will augment the bass nicely. Toe in, in the corner can help some imaging. But my thought is that "aiming" is not quite so much as aiming toward the listener as it is keeping the mid and treble from reflecting off the walls.

So it is a bit counter intuitive. Aiming the mid and tweeter to the listen might in some ways increase the level. But OTOH, keeping the side fringes off the walls reduces the reflections.

Many people here argue for replacing the capacitors as a means of improving treble and I'm sure they will have comments.

WMcD

Edited December 5, 2015 by William F. Gil McDermott

[Pete H]

Balanced is a great way to describe the Cornwalls and the bass should be very solid, at least I don't notice them lacking bass.  I agree that the room and placement could be an issue, but if this is your first set of Klipsch, I know that my initial reaction to my RF7's was that they were very bright, although after listening for a while, it turned out to be the mids and highs lacking in many other speakers that I had heard. 

[bdwg]

Thanks for the input, I will try some room placement options. I do have wood floors and I have a rug in the middle, the speakers are directly on the wood floor. When you speak of aiming, I assume in general you face them inward and not outward correct?

 

Let me follow up with a question too: I typically have always kept my bass and treble adjustments at a flat 12:00, now with the Klipsch, I found that putting them around 3:00 to 4:00 really give me the bass I want. (I mentioned in my original post that those adjustments were not helping, I guess I was just not going extreme enough). I always thought that keeping your controls flat was the way to go and bumping any of them was somewhat frowned upon... any thoughts? 

[Pete H]

Adjust your settings where you like what you're hearing, regardless of what anyone else says.  Toed in, not out and how close they are to rear and side walls just has to be played with and listened to, although the Cornwall's were ported in the front to make placement easier than the K Horns and LaScala's.  I'm also sure that due to the age, updating the crossover will result in better sound, which doesn't mean you need to do modifications or upgrades, just fresh parts should accomplish that.

Welcome to the forum. The cornwall's are a great set of speakers.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Pete H

[mike stehr]

 

Let me follow up with a question too: I typically have always kept my bass and treble adjustments at a flat 12:00, now with the Klipsch, I found that putting them around 3:00 to 4:00 really give me the bass I want. (I mentioned in my original post that those adjustments were not helping, I guess I was just not going extreme enough). I always thought that keeping your controls flat was the way to go and bumping any of them was somewhat frowned upon... any thoughts? 

 

You are not alone, I tend to tip up the bass on my Cornwalls with the receivers and integrated amplifiers that I've used...mostly cheap vintage stuff...

[Chris A]

Putting something absorbent down on the floor in front of each speaker - out to perhaps 2-3 feet, and something absorbent across the top of the loudspeakers should reduce the midrange through high midrange (400-2000 Hz) enough to tame the edge audibly. 

 

Placing the speakers to within 18 inches of each room corner, on the floor, will significantly improve bass performance, and toed-in to aim approximately at your listening position--or slightly in front or behind--will significantly improve imaging.  Side walls near the speaker might need a little fuzzy or absorbent material to control early midrange reflections - try it and see with a couple of towels, blankets, or comforters.  Sit in the center between the speakers and listen for improved center stereo image.

 

Try to keep anything that reflects sound away from the loudspeakers that is within 3 feet radius, including racks, equipment, furniture, etc.  This will increase imaging and tonal balance considerably.  That includes any coffee tables or furniture in front or to the side of your listening position within 3 feet.

 

Chris

Edited December 5, 2015 by Chris A

[bdwg]

Thanks for the position ideas. Right now the Christmas tree is in the corner of the room and we have the entire stereo set up shifted over to make room for the tree. After Christmas is done, I will do some placement experiments.

 

With respects to the crossover:

In general, should I replace the caps on the crossover? I have spoken to two people that say no need to the those are fairly robust on the Cornwall, but I've read tons of places that 30 years is just too long for capacitors. I know there is one leaf cap, which is probably fine, another one in a can that looks like an AC fan capacitor, and finally a large 70uF one for the woofer that looks like a half stick of dynamite. 

[bdwg]

Here is a pic of the crossover if anyone is interested. 

[Bossman]

I own a pair of 1985 Cornwall II's and they seem to sound very well balanced to me. The bass is also solid, but I too sometimes turn up the bass on my pre amp when I really want to push them hard (which I do very often). I have mine set up to a 70wpc class A amplifier in a 1350 square foot shop and they sound great, even when the the eq setting are set to flat. I listen to them all day Monday-Friday 9-5 at my place of employment. A great speaker to say the least. Mine are awaiting a re-cap that will be happing very soon.

[Chris A]

...but I've read tons of places that 30 years is just too long for capacitors...

 

This is correct for the capacitors used in those crossover networks.

 

Chris

[garyrc]

 

Let me follow up with a question too: I typically have always kept my bass and treble adjustments at a flat 12:00, now with the Klipsch, I found that putting them around 3:00 to 4:00 really give me the bass I want. (I mentioned in my original post that those adjustments were not helping, I guess I was just not going extreme enough). I always thought that keeping your controls flat was the way to go and bumping any of them was somewhat frowned upon... any thoughts? 

 

People disagree about tone control use.  I'm in favor of using the bass control, especially, for the following reasons:

• Recordings differ in their balance 
• CDs sometimes sound harsh & out of balance toward the top, which is usually better addressed by bass boost than by treble cut, IMO.  You don't want to lose those shimmering overtones by turning down the treble.
• Good recordings usually sound good with the controls flat, but not always.  Sometimes it depends on whether the people doing the transfer actually give a **** about the recording and/or the listener.  See Chris A's many posts in this forum about the "remastering" he does at home.  To me, SACDs tend to sound better, but this might be because because the engineers and producers know that they are likely to be purchased by audiophiles.  One AES test showed that they couldn't tell the difference, but I haven't looked at their methodology, and don't have CD/SACD pairs (or Hybrids) of their test discs.  So far, Blu-ray movies seem to have very good sound, on the average, especially, in my experience, with DTS-Hd Master Audio.
• Vinyl recordings (especially surviving older discs) often had the bass reduced to pamper the cutting process, and if a CD, SACD, of DVD-A is made from a old master, this might be true of them, as well.  Some of the time the bass cut was done late in the chain, just before mastering, but old engineers we heard from in a recording course I took said they generally set their microphones for bass roll-off, and judiciously replaced some, but usually not all of the bass in the final mix.
• Don't expect good sound from MP3, and the like
• An Article of Faith subscribed to by the "Golden Ears" audiophiles that lurk in the readership and staffs of high end magazines is that people should always have their tone controls flat, or buy preamps, pre/pros, or receivers with no tone controls.  They have a variety of reasons, including phase changes that can occur when tone controls are turned away from flat.  Whenever I have had a recording that seemed to need more bass, it has always sounded better with a some bass boost than without.  The best test is how it sounds to you.  IMO, the speakers favored by the "Golden Ears" often have a veiled sound in the upper mids and treble, so, by contrast, their bass comes through strongly, even if not very precise sounding.  Not so with Klipsch!  In those magazines and websites, Klipsch has the reputation of being too bright, but they probably haven't tried turning up the bass a bit, because that's against their rules.  Do you have Audyssey?  One option I use occasionally on a very few over-bright recordings (only if I find the sound unpleasant) is, after adding some bass boost, trying switching back and forth between Audyssey Flat and Audyssey Reference.  Either of these come earlier in the chain than true tone controls (beware virtual sliders, because they won't work with Audyssey).  Audyssey Reference imposes a slight treble roll off (-2 dB at 10K and about -5 dB at 16K, which would be about the upper limit of your tweeters) but it also puts in the "BBC Dip," at about 2K, which is a place that harshness often occurs.  I don't think any conventional tone control can do that.  Caution, Audyssey almost always attenuates the bass a little, so guess what Audyssey users usually do?  They turn up the bass control, and also turn up their subwoofer, if they have one.  Then they get room modes minimized, and some smoothing of mids and highs.
• Over the years, my preferred bass boost has been between + 4 dB and + 8 dB, depending entirely on the recording.  Exactly what that would be in terms of the rotation of the tone control depends on the design of your tone control.  Some modern ones only provide a +/- 6 dB range, or a +/- 12 dB range.  Some classic preamps provided as much as +/- 20 dB!  On my old McIntosh C28 (1970s), they specified a 4 dB average boost (depending on the exact frequency) in the bass per one tone control gradation.  They also provided a "Bass Trim" control that provided up to 6 dB more boost, so they must have thought some people, in some rooms, with some speaker placements, would find it useful.  My typical setting was B + 1 or  2 gradations, which would be a boost of about 4 to 8 dB.  My Luxman also had bass controls, plus a separate "Low Boost" switch.  In case you are relatively new at this, I should say that McIntosh and Luxman were, and are, two of the most respected manufacturers of electronics, and thought that playing around with tone balance was O.K.  The approx 4 to 8 dB boost is also the typical boost used by many of my friends.  Try any recording flat first, then if you think it is bass shy, feel free to turn up the bass!

Edited December 6, 2015 by garyrc

[bdwg]

Wow, thanks GaryRC!

[Stevenarrow]

anyone think there may be an issue with the hook up, wiring, or drivers. Cornwalls should not be leaving anyone wanting more bass...?!

[bdwg]

I just checked the speaker impedance and I was getting something around 4.6 off the back of the speaker terminals (nothing attached). I thought the speakers were supposed to be 8 ohms, but it looks like I could hook them up to the 4 ohm terminal. Any thoughts?

 

I found this thread from 2003: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/27349-nominal-cornwall-impedance/ 

[bdwg]

Both the 8 ohms and the 4 ohms terminals sound good, the high end is lowered a bit in the 4 ohm, which brings out the bass more, but the high end does sound better with 8 ohms. Which do you all use?