Going active, equipment advice needed

[tromprof]

A couple of questions for those in the know. After reading many posts here I think I want to give active crossovers a try with my QP set up and would like equipment advice. I want to buy used, and I would like to keep the cost down without sacrificing quality sound. I will be using Crown amps. I would really appreciate any specific model recommendations so I can start combing the used market. I would like to control my 3 way QPs plus a couple of F20 subs.

 

I also have a question regarding having only the front 3 channels active and the side and back channels passive (at least at first). Does this present problems? The cost of going active on all channels is scary.

Edited February 19, 2016 by tromprof

[Chris A]

So I think you're saying that you're considering two options:

 

1) 3-in, 9-out fronts, and 1-in, 2-out subs (assuming you want to control your subs separately)

 

and

 

2) 5-in, 15-out surround sound (or perhaps two more surrounds), and 1-in, 2-out subs

_____________________________________________________________________________

 

My suggestion is to split out the subs using something like a AVP and/or DSP front-end sub amps.  I use Crown XTi1000s (one for each sub) and they are very effective in that role.  The AVP could also be used to do EQ--especially the room EQ firmware stuff, like Audyssey, YPAO, etc.

 

So that leaves the full-range channels. I've found the 2-in, 6-out units are more plentiful on the used marketplace. For instance, the Yamaha SP-2060s that I posted in the alerts section a couple of days ago are really good bargains at ~$500 each, since these are the most hi-fi sounding units that I've heard thus far.  That sounds expensive--it isn't (less cost than 3rd party passives that I've seen on this forum).  Two of those will get you all three fronts plus subwoofers.  That would be the easiest approach.  Put your best amplifiers on the midrange and tweeter channels, and use something powerful but less costly for the bass bins.

 

Adding the surrounds is easy: just add another 2-in, 6-out unit.  You can wait on that part until later, and just EQ the surrounds as using an AVP and firmware room correction in the meantime.  That would get everything but the most spectacular surround recordings, like Gordon Goodwin's Big Phat Band Swingin' for the Fences DVD-A.  Most of the time, you'll not hear any difference.

 

Yamaha SP2060s are quite good--very transparent and hi-fi. 

 

Used Xilica XP series are difficult to find, but if you can find a XP4080 at a good price (4-in, 8-out, 24/96), you might be able to use one for your three fronts (L, C, R), depending on how many ways your center has.  The XP4080 can be had for about $1100+ new.  This is a real hi-fi unit, like the Yamaha.

 

I've heard that Ashly Protea sounds good (24/48), as well as the ElectroVoice DC-One (2-in, 6-out, 24/48). Both are available used.

 

Chris

Edited February 19, 2016 by Chris A

[Pete H]

I'm not even going to attempt any advice on the actives because I don't know anything and the right guy has already responded.  I'll soon be undertaking my first attempt going active so I will be following closely, but for the F-20's I can tell you that I'm thrilled with the SA230's that I'm running to power and dial those in on the fly having simple gain, phase and frequency controls and don't see an advantage to getting complicated with the sub signal, but again, I don't know what I don't know, it just works well for me.  I'll be watching and reading this to try and pick up a few things to help me navigate the same rabbit hole.

[NBPK402]

I'll second Chris on the Xilica XP-4080... I purchased mine a while back new, and it is an excellent unit.

[tromprof]

Thanks for the advice so far. It sounds like I am starting with an investment of around $1000 to get the front end of my system active.

Are there any older units that would be a bit more of a bargain that would be able to do just the time delay? I really don't need the ability to do much EQing, I have that aspect covered.

[Chris A]

The real issue is having sufficient output ports and quality analog circuitry, as it turns out.

 

The EV Dx38 (2-in, 4-out, 24/48) can be found sometimes at a good price, but I've never seen one listed for much less than $400 unfortunately.  If they were something like $200, and you could buy three, then you'd have a stop-gap alternative solution that would work. 

 

The Behringer DCX2496 has noted analog fidelity issues that are deeply embedded in its architecture, but if you just want to try out active digital (knowing the fidelity issues) these can be found for less than $200.

 

The miniDSPs all seem to have signal-to-noise issues.  If you're not sensitive to hiss or are willing to reduce its dynamic range through using resistors in series, then you might find something that works for you.  I haven't heard of anyone using efficient horn-loaded loudspeakers that has had a successful run with them. 

 

I'm not sure what the issues are with the dbx DriveRacks other than the complaints about their sound fidelity.

 

There may be sound card PC approaches available for less money, but I haven't been investigating that market.  I've tried to seer away from trying to use a PC as a real-time operating system (RTOS)--other than foobar2000--since Microsoft and Apple didn't design their OSs to be real time.  A fair amount of skinnying down of background processes/anti-virus/etc. is required, as well as a better quality sound card(s) with sufficient output ports will be needed.  I've not heard of anything being used by others that seems to be taking the market in this area.  Most everyone that I've seen have been trying to use miniDSP with lower efficiency loudspeakers.

 

When you think about it, something like a Yamaha SP2060 for $500 is a real steal...compared to what the alternatives are, if you're using high efficiency and you actually want hi-fi.  Getting just one of those units in the short term to use with your fronts will give you stereo full-time performance with real fidelity.

 

Chris

Edited February 20, 2016 by Chris A

[Pete H]

The Behringer DCX2496 has noted analog fidelity issues that are deeply embedded in its architecture, but if you just want to try out active digital (knowing the fidelity issues) these can be found for less than $200.

Not stealing the thread but the Behringer unit is actually what I have and picked up a few years ago, but haven't gotten around to trying it.  If I'm hearing you correctly this will be fine to learn about using an active, but is not going to sound any good?  

[Chris A]

Probably the best way to approach this is to let you read about how others have worked on the problems after buying one.

 

Consider however the low price point of used Yamaha SP2040s and the new price on a Xilica 4080 (i.e., double the number of inputs and outputs of an EV Dx38), it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me at least to go down that path if you have a choice.  YMMV.

 

However, if you already own one and need to upgrade it, you can consider the following: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/237603-dcx2496-upgrade-board-objectively-tackling-improvement-stock-dcx2496.html

 

Chris

[Chris A]

By the way, I'd take issue with the OP's comment about "friendly" user interface.

 

Nothing from Behringer that I found seems to be "friendly"...but rather the rock-bottom prices.

 

Chris

[tromprof]

Unless one fell into my lap I don't think I want to go the Behringer route. I owned a couple of their DEQ2496 units. They were quiet good in the digital realm but really fell down in the analog conversion side if the equation. I would assume the crossover would have the same or similar components.

It seems like there are always sleeper components out there like my EV DH1A drivers and the Crown amps that really shine and cost next to nothing. I was hoping for a crossover equivalent. Sounds like the bargains are a bit more costly this time.

[Pete H]

Thanks Chris!  I'll probably use it as a learning tool while looking around for a deal on something better.  Boy do I have a lot to learn!

[Chris A]

Sounds like the bargains are a bit more costly this time.

 

I don't wish to overstate my knowledge in this area: there may be bargains available.  I personally just haven't found them yet.  I assume that with the continued downward trend of quality loudspeaker processor prices (especially from Xilica) that many of the integration issues, i.e., having to DIY to fix problems, will fall by the wayside.  I see the marketplace trending to integrated AVPs with these capabilities once consumers wise up to their real advantages.

 

I always keep my eyes open on the used processor market--it seems a lot of audiophiles haven't realized that approach yet.  When I see someone spending $1200(US) for a pair of passive crossovers that don't do anything other than relatively steep slope crossing at a pre-determined frequency--and basically do nothing else, I just shake my head.  For that kind of money, you can have real control and fidelity in-room...for more than just two stereo loudspeakers. 

 

Additionally, higher quality pro loudspeaker processors can be utilized on future projects for the balance of your lifetime--they aren't wedded to the particular loudspeakers that they are currently driving, and they are easily changed to drive any upgrades to the loudspeaker (or room placement/acoustic treatments) when they are made.  These units are investments that will never become obsolete.

 

Chris

[horatio2]

I would like to weigh in on this one, having spent much time on this.  I run a MiniDSP, one of the relatively early adopters (2010/2011) among Klipsch enthusiasts.  I did this after spending a lot of time with a Rane AC23 and another 4 channel active setup (can't recall the name, off hand), but both pro sound.  I just didn't want to bail into this exercise at $1K+, when I was not sure of the eventual outcome.  Never-the-less, I have devoted quite a bit of time and dollars to it, cumulatively.

 

There is a recent addition to the MiniDSP product line that is about perfect for this- OpenDRC-DA8, which can handle a stereo 4 way configuration, and can do room correction.  It isn't cheap but it is way less than some of the other alternatives.

 

On the noise complaints with MiniDSP: I use the original MiniDSP, 2 in 4 out, as I biamp a modified corner horn (top replaced with EV HR6040+Altec 288, driven by Decware SET on top).  I do not have, nor have I seriously experienced noise issues with the MiniDSP: you MUST use a good quality power supply, but this is needed in anything that provides a DAC output.  I have had WAY more noise problems with the SET than anything else, but eventually got those settled.  Anything fed into the horn drivers can be heard, and you will undoubtedly notice all of it.

 

What is more common of a concern is getting the gain structure correct: this means ensuring that your analog input (if you are using this downstream of your preamp) sensitivity is matched to your preamp and that the MiniDSP output sensitivity is matched to your amplifier input sensitivity.  Get that wrong, and you will get noise, or poor dynamic range, or both. 

 

In my case, the MiniDSP not well matched to my amplifiers, which themselves have different input sensitivities with respect to one another.  I have had to resort to line preamps on the outputs to trim in the gain structure.  I don't think I would have had to do that for the OpenDRC-DA8, as its DACs drive to a much higher output level; I would figure to passively pad this down, if needed, to match the amp input needs, while retaining full DAC bit range.

 

One other thing, too: the MiniDSP I run, as well as the OpenDRC-DA8 have a master volume control that moves all outputs up and down together, from their software configured levels.  This is the main reason (followed closely by the analog output quality issues) I did not go with the '2496: this, once modded, can do what you seek, but will get very expensive along the way, and as I recall, only does 3 channels, stereo.

 

Point is, you can play around with your arrangement very economically this way, and decide if you want to dump more into the matter.

 

Get a good mic and some measurement software and prepare for some work.  Once dialed in, though, I don't think you will view the world the same way again.

[Pete H]

I always keep my eyes open on the used processor market--it seems a lot of audiophiles haven't realized that approach yet. When I see someone spending $1200(US) for a pair of passive crossovers that don't do anything other than relatively steep slope crossing at a pre-determined frequency--and basically do nothing else, I just shake my head. For that kind of money, you can have real control and fidelity in-room...for more than just two stereo loudspeakers. Additionally, higher quality pro loudspeaker processors can be utilized on future projects for the balance of your lifetime--they aren't wedded to the particular loudspeakers that they are currently driving, and they are easily changed to drive any upgrades to the loudspeaker (or room placement/acoustic treatments) when they are made. These units are investments that will never become obsolete.

 

I totally agree with you, which is why I need to start the process and get comfortable with it.  Just a question, couldn't the OP start out by purchasing a couple of simple Ashly, DBX or similar crossovers only (giving up the DSP) to get his feet wet with active crossovers?  The money invested will be negligible and if he wants to move up in the future to units that you have mentioned, he could sell the other ones and continue up the ladder.

 

I also found a company out of the UK (Behringer Mods) that offer upgrade kits to fix the major issues with the input and output signals on the DBX and reviews to fully support their claims and I would be looking at around $275 to have the boards shipped with instructions and I would do the install.  I'm looking to pick up a couple of 2" drivers to couple with 2 goldwood 450 horns so I can start by playing with a 2 way active and then move on from there.  I'll keep reading through the DBX info that is here and on other forums, but if these mods will bring it up to respectable performance, I'll be in the whole thing for under $500.

[Chris A]

What is more common of a concern is getting the gain structure correct: this means ensuring that your analog input (if you are using this downstream of your preamp) sensitivity is matched to your preamp and that the MiniDSP output sensitivity is matched to your amplifier input sensitivity. Get that wrong, and you will get noise, or poor dynamic range, or both.

 

This is another way of stating the signal/noise or dynamic range issues with the miniDSPs.  With the pro units described above, there are zero issues, I've found.  For anyone not familiar with chasing down those kind of electronics issues, I don't recommend miniDSP.

 

One thing to say at this point: there seems to be a preconditioned expectation that you can spend lots of money on tube-type amplifiers and preamps, but when you get to probably the most important pieces (in terms of variability of product performance)--loudspeakers and crossovers--that one can use the cheapest available.  I don't recommend that approach or that kind of thinking.  I recommend rethinking that in its entirety.

 

If you start with an active digital crossover of quality, it just isn't difficult or time consuming - basically it's just plug-and-play.  I think a lot of people miss that point.

 

Chris

[Chris A]

couldn't the OP start out by purchasing a couple of simple Ashly, DBX or similar crossovers only (giving up the DSP) to get his feet wet with active crossovers?

 

No gain there.  The gain is from time alignment using DSP, and their inherent properties to do EQ to flatten overall response (amplitude and phase).  Using analog active crossovers doesn't do that.

 

 

 

I also found a company out of the UK (Behringer Mods)

I don't recommend Behringer.    I believe it to ultimately be a waste of time chasing something that an extra $100-$200 up-front eliminates. You'll wind up spending much more later using the lowest cost units trying to fix, with huge levels of dissatisfaction with the way it sounds for most of that journey.

 

JMTC--YMMV.

 

Chris

Edited February 20, 2016 by Chris A

[Pete H]

I will not waste the $300 then and instead start casually looking for the right used piece. I have a feeling that this is going to be an extended learning curve on this one.

[horatio2]

This is another way of stating the signal/noise or dynamic range issues with the miniDSPs. With the pro units described above, there are zero issues, I've found. For anyone not familiar with chasing down those kind of electronics issues, I don't recommend miniDSP. One thing to say at this point: there seems to be a preconditioned expectation that you can spend lots of money on tube-type amplifiers and preamps, but when you get to probably the most important pieces (in terms of variability of product performance)--loudspeakers and crossovers--that one can use the cheapest available. I don't recommend that approach or that kind of thinking. I recommend rethinking that in its entirety. If you start with an active digital crossover of quality, it just isn't difficult or time consuming - basically it's just plug-and-play. I think a lot of people miss that point.

 

Chris:

 

I do believe I agree with you: one must think.  And if one does, one discovers there are many avenues. 

 

Of course there is always the option of going with the high end pro gear and pushing the button and walking away. 

 

But where's the fun in that?

 

I don't see that the low price of minidsp equates somehow to an inferior choice; you should try it to be sure you feel that way. 

 

But, there are those for whom the money spent authenticates the approach.  Follow your bliss-

[NBPK402]

 

This is another way of stating the signal/noise or dynamic range issues with the miniDSPs. With the pro units described above, there are zero issues, I've found. For anyone not familiar with chasing down those kind of electronics issues, I don't recommend miniDSP. One thing to say at this point: there seems to be a preconditioned expectation that you can spend lots of money on tube-type amplifiers and preamps, but when you get to probably the most important pieces (in terms of variability of product performance)--loudspeakers and crossovers--that one can use the cheapest available. I don't recommend that approach or that kind of thinking. I recommend rethinking that in its entirety. If you start with an active digital crossover of quality, it just isn't difficult or time consuming - basically it's just plug-and-play. I think a lot of people miss that point.

 

Chris:

 

I do believe I agree with you: one must think.  And if one does, one discovers there are many avenues. 

 

Of course there is always the option of going with the high end pro gear and pushing the button and walking away. 

 

But where's the fun in that?

 

I don't see that the low price of minidsp equates somehow to an inferior choice; you should try it to be sure you feel that way. 

 

But, there are those for whom the money spent authenticates the approach.  Follow your bliss-

 

I had the minidsp 2x4 in unbalanced with their power supply, and I had some noise. When i sold them and went to the balanced versions i got a lot of hiss. I contacted their Tech Support and was told to run it unbalanced as it was not meant for high efficiency horns. I now own the Xilica XP4080, and have zero issues. One thing also to be aware of is MiniDSP doesn't allow returns unless they acknowledge it as being defective (and then I believe it is exchange only). If you are going to buy a Minidsp I would highly suggest finding a dealer you can buy it from, and return for a full refund if you don't like it.

[babadono]

One thing to say at this point: there seems to be a preconditioned expectation that you can spend lots of money on tube-type amplifiers and preamps, but when you get to probably the most important pieces (in terms of variability of product performance)--loudspeakers and crossovers--that one can use the cheapest available. I don't recommend that approach or that kind of thinking. I recommend rethinking that in its entirety.

  Bravo! Some truer words have not been written.

     About audio that is.

Edited February 21, 2016 by babadono