Help - Tempted by Ebay (Still)

[mrquery]

very loud levels and a "wet/lush" sound are mutually exclusive

 

 

Point taken, the amp would specifically be used for jazz listening at conversation level. Still looking around.

Edited February 27, 2016 by mrquery

[tube fanatic]

The only remaining question then is how far from the speakers you will be when listening at conversational levels.  If we consider the latter as being around 65 db, you will only need flea-power for your listening.  As an example, only 1/10 watt with 94 db rated speakers will provide a level of around 67+ db at 9 meters from the speakers!!!  That is not an exaggeration.  And, to match a 65 db conversational level, you would need only around 50 milliwatts to match that level at 9 meters!  So, with all that in mind, what I suggest is that you contact Decware (about 2 hours from you) about purchasing one of their Zen Triode amps (2 watts/channel).  I realize that it is double your budget, but they offer a money back guarantee.  Bring it home, use it for a week or two, and return it.  They may even have one which has been returned which they would sell you at a reduced price.  You can then consider your options if it does what I anticipate it will. 

 

http://www.decware.com/newsite/homepage.html

 

http://www.decware.com/paper43.htm

 

 

Maynard

Edited February 28, 2016 by tube fanatic

[NOSValves]

The only remaining question then is how far from the speakers you will be when listening at conversational levels. If we consider the latter as being around 65 db, you will only need flea-power for your listening. As an example, only 1/10 watt with 94 db rated speakers will provide a level of around 67+ db at 9 meters from the speakers!!! That is not an exaggeration. And, to match a 65 db conversational level, you would need only around 50 milliwatts to match that level at 9 meters! So, with all that in mind, what I suggest is that you contact Decware (about 2 hours from you) about purchasing one of their Zen Triode amps (2 watts/channel). I realize that it is double your budget, but they offer a money back guarantee. Bring it home, use it for a week or two, and return it. They may even have one which has been returned which they would sell you at a reduced price. You can then consider your options if it does what I anticipate it will.

http://www.decware.com/newsite/homepage.html

http://www.decware.com/paper43.htm

Maynard

Good advice!

[mrquery]

The only remaining question then is how far from the speakers you will be when listening at conversational levels.

 

Hi I used to do critical listening 3 meters from the speaker which triangulates the speaker position. But I also listen from the kitchen (about 6 meters more) when I do food preparation. 

 

Good advice!

 

Like any other audiophile, there will always be the question of which one is better (it's a perspective of choice actually)? I am now in the market for either used scott or eico plus the recommended tube amps from this thread. Let's see...

[ToolShedAmps]

Bring it home, use it for a week or two, and return it.

 

 

Do NOT do this.....I am certain that Steve Deckert (as well as myself, and, Justin @ ampandsounds) would find the notion fraudulent at the very least. There is a reason that the following are ALL in the $1,200 ball-park. 

 

http://www.decware.com/newsite/SE84CKCS.html

 

http://www.toolshedamps.com/products/renaissance4-stereo-amplifier-1

 

http://ampsandsound.com/products/custom-amps/se-84/

 

The cost of "Raw Materials" and "Labor" alone account for nearly $800 of the cost, AND, a decent "tube-set" adds an additional $200. That leaves (potentially) a $200 profit.

 

If a customer knowingly "forces" a manufacturer to remove ALL of the profit from an amplifier by returning it (with NO intention of purchase) thereby causing the item to now be classified as "USED", the customer has effectively defrauded the manufacturer. This in turn would influence a "non-sustainable" business model were it to happen repeatedly.

 

So, as you can imagine, I find this suggestion alarming......AND, reprehensible.

 

TS Matt.

[Zim.]

x

[tube fanatic]

Matt, you are viewing this through the eyes of a custom builder.  Of course, neither you nor I could afford to create something specific, offer an in home trial with it, and then take it back (which is why I don't offer any of my creations for sale on the forum, and generally restrict myself to the local crowd for whom I can provide demonstrations using the prototypes I keep on hand).  Companies which do offer in home trials like Decware (and as Zim noted, they call it a trial), expect a certain percentage of their products to be returned and build that into the price of the equipment.  The restocking fee covers the necessary cost involved in checking out the equipment which can then be sold as used, while still making a profit (not that anyone would know whether it is used or not if in perfect condition).  THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO FRAUD INVOLVED HERE!!!!!  It's not as if this isn't clearly offered on their web site.  Crutchfield offers a 60 day in home trial, and I could list other sellers of audio equipment which do the same.  

Maynard    

[ToolShedAmps]

Matt, you are viewing this through the eyes of a custom builder.  Of course, neither you nor I could afford to create something specific, offer an in home trial with it, and then take it back (which is why I don't offer any of my creations for sale on the forum, and generally restrict myself to the local crowd for whom I can provide demonstrations using the prototypes I keep on hand).  Companies which do offer in home trials like Decware (and as Zim noted, they call it a trial), expect a certain percentage of their products to be returned and build that into the price of the equipment.  The restocking fee covers the necessary cost involved in checking out the equipment which can then be sold as used, while still making a profit (not that anyone would know whether it is used or not if in perfect condition).  THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO FRAUD INVOLVED HERE!!!!!  It's not as if this isn't clearly offered on their web site.  Crutchfield offers a 60 day in home trial, and I could list other sellers of audio equipment which do the same.  

Maynard    

Hi Maynard,

 

I guess both you and Zim are missing the point. The "Trial" offered by Steve (and others) was NEVER designed to be a vehicle for an "Amplifier-Rental". It is merely a "marketing tool" to build confidence in would-be purchasers. Steve is confident enough in his product to offset the "occasional" return with the fact that the sales he makes on the units that are "kept" far outweigh the cost of the returns. The "TRIAL" is provided to customers who "willingly" wish to PURCHASE the amplifier. Don't for a moment think that he is providing a "RENTAL" service for the price of the 10% re-stocking fee....

 

TS Matt.

[tube fanatic]

Cris, how are you making out with your research on possible tube amps?  Remember, ask as many questions as you like.  You may get some very varied opinions (like the above ), but that will certainly assist you in ultimately making an appropriate decision.  Even when we argue a bit on here, we all remain friends.  Don't be discouraged when folks disagree with each other!!!

 

Maynard

[mrquery]

Maynard, the eico amp (not sure what model) is hunting me. I heard this 7 years ago back in my country driving kg4s. I just need to confirm this is what I am looking for. If not, I'll be happy with a SET amp.

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[mrquery]

Right now just trying things out, got me 3 amps to try later this week may be.

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[MyOwn]

Chris, Get the best what you can within your budget. My 2 cents worth...Have a look here in your future....

 

Per Member sailor

Just got the new newsletter. WOW!!!!! Hold onto your hats, Bruce is on a roll. Changing the 300B OTL to DC and lowering the price and introducing a 300B push/pull  Way to go Bruce.

 

Per Owner Bruce

You see guys, I'm the anti-establishment amp company.  The old line establishment companies give you the same thing year after year, put a different box around it, and tell you its something new and improved. Then they boost the price because the new box is supposed to be better when its really just the same old thing.  Then the audio press chimes in and glorifies the new box because they get their money from the same companies that make the same old thing in the new box.  People have been swallowing that manure for decades and they are fed up.  They are tired of spending their hard earned money on things that never did work well and cost a fortune.  Then they come to me.

 

Thread

http://tubehifi.websitetoolbox.com/post/new-newsletter-7958577?trail=15#11

 

http://www.transcendentsound.com/Home.html

Edited March 4, 2016 by Steve_S

[mike stehr]

Maynard, the eico amp (not sure what model) is hunting me. I heard this 7 years ago back in my country driving kg4s. I just need to confirm this is what I am looking for. If not, I'll be happy with a SET amp.

 

Eico HF-81 integrated PP EL84 amplifier?

[mrquery]

Not sure if you can use hf-81 as a pre amp. Last I hear the eico was used as a pre mp driven by el34 (again not sure) power amp. But I am trying integrated amp first as one box solution, so hf-81 will do. Just need to know it's sonic signatire.

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[mrquery]

It's expensive to audition things if you need to buy them then sell afterwards. But that's what I have now. After I hear the eico and still not satisfy I'll head to decware which is 2 hours from here.

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[mrquery]

Anybody kind enough to let me audition an eico?

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[mike stehr]

 

 

Cris, I'd ask people on here who have Cornwalls about them.If you are looking for "lush wet sound" Cornwalls may not be what you want. Most on here say they are good for rock music, but lack in other types with the mids and highs. I would probably look at the forte or chorus lines, and take it from there.I could be wrong, but everything I see posted states Cornwalls are not the best for critical listening.

 

I disagree.

 

 

Mike, that's why I recommended he ask other members on here. I do not own a set and am going by what others have stated. I was told they are very good for rock, but classical and other softer types not as good. I asked as well when I was in the market and settled on the forte II's.

 

 

I've had mine for at least ten years now...I originally had a pair of Chorus II, with a Yamaha MX-1 amp and CX-2 pre-amp. Gobs of headroom there...metal and rock no problem.

At lower levels for critical listening like Jazz, it sounded nice in a boring neutral kind of way. But nonetheless, Chorus II need bit of grunt in a amplifier.

 

Of course I wanted to look into the Klipsch speaker and vacuum tube amplifier thing. At the time, I didn't really have the knowledge or the money to get into a vacuum tube amplifier that would have enough grunt for the Chorus II, which IMO should be around 35 watts a side or better...maybe less. I started with a pair of Eico HF-12s. A integrated mono EL84 PP amplifier that I converted into just power amplifiers, along with some console amplifier finds, being single-ended 6BQ5/EL84 pentode amplifers. I got a good enough taste of tubes to continue, but wanted to continue to venture into single-ended amplifiers.

 

The tube amplifiers I had at the time, just did not have the gumption to push the Chorus II with respect to bass. So for some reason I decided to go with Cornwall, I guess a bit more higher efficiency and a bit less of a reactive load with impedance. I wish I had just ponied up more cash and purchased the Cornwalls, and kept the pair of Chorus II and Yamaha gear. But I sold the stuff to fund for the Cornwalls.

 

But using single-ended tube amplifiers with the Cornwalls has been a fun learning experience. In a small room semi near-field they can provide plenty of bass with single-ended tube amps, and provide a good image...not like the equilateral triangle using bookshelf speakers on stands, but good. (I don't have the room to optimally pull the CWs out from the walls)

 

I've listened to Cornwalls in a rather large room, where they are out in the middle of the room at least 10 feet from the walls, and around 12 feet apart. The LP was about 12 feet back. We were listening to either McIntosh gear or a custom made EL84 PP the guy had made. I think it was a VPI turntable, or a Scout or some such, a 5-8000 dollar TT, with a 1200 dollar Shelter cart.

You can critically listen with Cornwalls.

 

Cornwalls have that bit of a peak around 60Hz or so. It gives some good warmth on older rock, but maybe a tad boomy on metal with tight bass. They seem to do rap pretty good with a tube amplifier for those who may be mildly interested. That's when listening to compact discs.

 

Now being designed in the heyday of records, Cornwalls can really shine with vinyl. Using my Scott LK48B with it's phono stage, and my old dinosaur Musicmaster Point One Five idler drive TT, (with Velvet Touch tonearm) you can go into a time warp with old early sixties records.

CD or vinyl, I've had plenty of good experience listening to softer music or Jazz with the Cornwalls. Classical and metal demand a lot from a speaker...

 

My best vinyl experience with the CW, is when I made a breadboard passive phono stage of the JE Labs design, using 6SL7 and my 2A3 amplifier. I played a bunch of Jazz albums thinking they would sound excellent. Well they sounded fine, but not much more exciting than through the Scott integrated. I then played a Herbie Hancock LP, (Rockit?) and was blown away at the difference. It went from sounds nice to ultra-fidelity from one record change.

 

I've had LaScalas,listened to Jubilees briefly, and listened to Khorns on numerous occasions.

 

The best imaging experience I've had in this little room at home, was using a pair of ported cabinets of about 3.5 to 4 foot internal volume, with a 10" woofer pilfered from Lafayette "Criterion 100B" speakers.

Using the 2A3 amplifier, the woofers were wide open with no crossover, and JBL 075s were used for tweeters...capped off and padded down heavily. They were positioned on the top of the cabinets for best imaging. Spooky imaging, stuff flying over and behind one's head. Got rid of the JBLs however, but I have some Selenium slotted tweeters that work well.

 

The speakers themselves are garbage, but those woofers are odd birds...one thing is they are almost a fullrange. I think they have a 2" voicecoil, with shorting rings...Alnico magnets.

Age and depending on condition, the Fs roll-off of the 10" driver will be around 50-60Hz.

 

Now here where it gets weird, you put the ten inch driver in the 3.5-4 foot cabinet, and port tune the cabinet for around 35Hz...way below the driver Fs. Add polyfil to tighten up the slight boom.

I had an old retired EE audio friend that did this. He has a pair of the same size cabinets, and out of pure boredom once pulled these 10" drivers out of some 5 dollar Criterion 100B speakers. He invited me to listen once to get a take. We were both scratching our heads. Strong growling bass down to 35-40Hz, with the top-end up to a 8kHz before they start really fading away. A simple tweeter on top, and it's a rather good sounding two-way speaker.

I can't recall if I ever tried a zobel network to kill some of the raggedness up on top, (which can be a bit aggressive with some music) but also have a nice lively type sound about them.

Should drag them out again and play with them again someday.

 

Good lord, sorry about the long post...

Edited March 5, 2016 by mike stehr

[mike stehr]

Thanks.

 

A guy has to at least play with a full range speaker at least once. The Whitely Stentorian HF1016 was a 10" full range driver that really impressed me...but I never heard any of the Lowther, AER, or other exotic full range speakers.