Card Deluxe...INDEED!!!

[Mallette]

Radius 10

>I usually try to limit my setup to a three mic array for the main
pickup & an additional mic for vocal soloists since they typically
aren't strong enough voices to belt it out.

If there is no place in the building where the solists are balanced, it's an artistic, not a technical problem. In fact, this is the case anywhere you cannot find a place where two mikes can get great stereo image or a soundcube-like coincedent 4 channel array cannot get good surround.

If you are doing simply stereo, work on the above principle. If the solists are too weak, it's not going to sound any better to the audience than it will on the recording. Think about it! It makes sense. In that case, you need to find the best spot in the house during rehearsal and record it. If it doesn't sound good, play it for the conductor and tell him or her that is what the audience is hearing.

If you are doing simple stereo, then get rid of the whole shooting match and carry just a preamp and a Korg MR-1. I'd go for the MR-1000 if your budget can afford it, awesome for home and location. However, I think the MR-1 will be more than adequate for your application and you'll have the advantage of being able to transcode to 192, 96, 88.2, 44.1 in 16 or 24 bits with no audible degradation not due to the limitations of the format itself.

Back to the mikes. I've not used that one, as I am a ribbon guy. Won't go into a pitch here, though it's tempting...

I hope you have the omni capsule. I can hear the phasing used to produce cardiod response and don't care for it. In any event, the best placement for these is coincedent, that is, the heads as close a practical on a single stand. If they are omnis, the direction of the capsule is irrelevant. Just get them close together. In fact, you could reverse them and point the cables at the source and the result would be the same. However, people would look at you strangely.

Give it a shot. Don't be afraid to talk to the conductor about the sound. If the solists are weak, the choir should sing more quietly or the solists should be replaced with some with real pipes. If you cannot get any cooperation or understanding, then I'd suggest more channels for spot mikes as required...but run them without a mixer to a separate digital channel. I can hear mixers too, and don't like them. Worse, if you don't get it right, you can't fix it. Digital mixing after the fact is more transparent (though not entirely) and can be worked with until you get it right.

I'd love to hear your results and will be able to tell you a lot more after hearing them. If you do that, please provide a mike plan. Doesn't have to be fancy, just an outline of the space with the sound sources indicated and the mikes. A guess and width, height, and length would help as well. A photo from the back would be even better.

Regards,

Dave

[artto]

OK, thanks Dave. I didn't realize that 1 bit DSD was available to us everyday folks at reasonable prices yet.

I took a look at the Korg MR-1 & MR-1000. The MR-1000 may be a little expensive for my occassional dedicated usage but selling some of my other stuff (like the two Mackie mixers) might make the price more palatable.

One question remains. How do I get four channels of mic preamp (from the Radius 10 for instance) onto a two channel device like the Korg MR-1 or MR-1000? I ran across that same link you posted but the HHB manufacturers website no longer has it listed in its product section so I'm having difficulty getting any particulars on it. I've seen one used for $400.

[Mallette]

OK, thanks Dave. I didn't realize that 1 bit DSD was available to us everyday folks at reasonable prices yet.

I took a look at the Korg MR-1 & MR-1000. The MR-1000 may be a little expensive for my occassional dedicated usage but selling some of my other stuff (like the two Mackie mixers) might make the price more palatable.

One question remains. How do I get four channels of mic preamp (from the Radius 10 for instance) onto a two channel device like the Korg MR-1 or MR-1000? I ran across that same link you posted but the HHB manufacturers website no longer has it listed in its product section so I'm having difficulty getting any particulars on it. I've seen one used for $400.

'

Heckuva deal at 400. Go for it, you'll love it.

Why do you want to get 4 to 2? Can't help you until I understand what you are trying to do.

Dave

[artto]

After thinking through this some more, I think we’re on two
different tracks.

My problem is if I put a closely spaced stereo pair out in
front of “everything” I get too close to where the audience is. Omni’s are not
an option out there because I loose too much volume from the Choral which
forces me to increase gain, and I’m closer to the audience and then I’m picking
up more audience noise with the increased gain. To make matters worse, the
Choral seems to like using monitors so they can hear themselves. And on top of
that, if I move the stereo pair farther away from the Choral (say, to the very
outside edge of the stage) the mics are picking up sound from the sound reinforcement
system which really turns things to mush! Especially with omni’s.

So, to get around all of this, I’ve been using a spaced
array, left cardioid, omni center, cardioid right, fairly close to the Choral (about
60 to 70 members). I’ll put a Shure Beta58 or Oktava MC 012 hyper-cardioid on
the soloists and have to bring up/down the gain when necessary.

The three or four mics go to the Mackie 1202 mixer which
feeds two-channel to both the DAT (alibi) and the computer sound card (E-mu
0404) via analog inputs. I use Sound Forge for recording.

As I understand it, your are using two microphones as a
closely spaced stereo pair exclusively. I suspect you’re only using two of
those four channels on the Radius 10. I guess where I’m confused, is if you
needed some kind of additional fill-in mic, for a vocalist for instance, how
are you reducing that (three or four mics) to two channels for the sound card
or whatever, to record to the computer HD?

[Mallette]

Okies, Artto, I am still trying to fill in some of the questions I asked but I think I am getting a better picture.

Let me state again: If you cannot find a place where the balance is right for two mikes, the problem lies with the conductor. If it sounds good to the ears, it will sound good to the mikes. I never use more than two mikes for stereo except in extreme conditions which are not relevant here, nor do I EVER employ a mixer on location.

As to the mikes, you now bring me to the reason I use ribbons. The natural figure 8 pattern allows me to place them high and looking down in a coincedent pattern such that the rear lobes are looking at the space but over the audience. That naturally minimizes the audience noise (as do your ears by selecting the direction you are concentrating one) while providing a clear image of the the subject.

The issues you are describing are of the conductor providing a good sound for the space, and the engineer using the right tools to preserve the performance.

Keep thinking on it, and keep me informed.

Dave

[Mallette]

Let me expound a bit on a key thought. If you cannot get a decent recording with omni's, it is a function of the space and/or the conductor. Unless there is no audience present, the lack of focus of the omnis is always going to produce more distraction in the recording than ones ears hear and will, though the recording is true to the actuall space/time event, not be as satisfying as it could be because the audience is now mixed to the front and therefore your ears and brain cannot properly focus on just the music. That is one of the most severe limitations of stereo. My SoundCube is actually omni, but because the audience is now hear in the rear as it should be the brain can filter as it would in the real space and minimize it. In spite of those who are commited to it, stereo at it's best produces only an approximation of a real space/time audio event as the information required for the brain to really experience it simply isn't there or is in the wrong place.

That's why I favor the ribbon patterns for stereo that allow me to provide an image that is more like the ear/brain produces. Your ears are omni in that they are picking up from 360 degrees. While their form factor produces some degree of diretional focus, it's really mainly the brain that filters the distractions. The ribbons mimic this by allowing a pickup of the rear ambience that, by being overhead, produces a mix of the entire event that favors the direction of the music in a very natural way.

If omnis are what you have to work with, then you need to place them as close to the source as possible in order to produce something like I've described.

If you are working with cardiods, you want to be a bit further back.

I hope this is makeing sense.

Dave

[artto]

If omnis are what you have to work with, then you need to place them as close to the source as possible in order to produce something like I've described.

If you are working with cardiods, you want to be a bit further back.

I hope this is makeing sense.

Dave

Thanks Dave. That's exactly what I've done ~ place the mics closer to the Choral. In actuality, I do place the center onmi closer in that the risers the Choral stand on are curved, therefore the center is further away fromthe front line of the stage. I usually have to do this simply because of staging/space restrictions. And the the L+R cardioids are a little further back. It's almost like the old Decca tree except the mics are high in the air on stands. I've been recording them at this location (College Church, Wheaton College, IL) for a number of years now and this seems to work best. The only time I got a little better sound is when I was able to borrow a pair of Neumann KM183 omni's for the L+R which are similar to the Oktava MC 012 (or I should say the Oktava are similar to the Neumann.

But now I understand why you're using the ribbons with a figure 8 pattern. I've tried using the Oktava's as a closely spaced pair and coincident pair well out in front of the Choral/orchestra at the front edge of the stage and the results were not as good. I can see where a pair of figure 8 would solve some of these issues. It might even help to not pickup the sound reinforcement which literally destroys everything. Since this is all I use the Oktava MC 012's for I'll have to rethink my set up. I sure wish you or someone with a pair of nice ribbons lived closer to me so I could try it before buying (most places around here have a no return policy on microphones).

[Mallette]

>...sound reinforcement...

Arghhh! Surely there are no loudspeakers active during a performance!

Dave

[Tom Mobley]

Hey, I have an unused new M-Audio Audiophile 2496 I would let go cheap to a good home. PM me if interested.

[J M O N]

Max:

I've also used a Hi-Fi VCR to record music -- albeit from CD sources. I mainly did this for parties where I wanted to get as much as six hours of uninterrupted music. Now I can't say I ever did any serious comparisions between the original source and the VHS tape, but in the short comparisons I did, I can't say I could differentiate the two. The quality was certainly more than good enough for my purposes. Now I will say that how ever many hours of music I wanted to have available, it seemed to take about twice that long to make the recordings. That was the biggest drawback for me.

[maxg]

JMon,

I am starting to find more and more people who have played with this- hardly a surprise I suppose - but few who have considered it from an audiophile POV.

I have found one other who informed me he has owned a video for about a decade without it ever coming into contact with a TV - he only ever used it for audio purposes. He reckons he gets a better result doing this than using his Nakamichi (sp?) audio tape unit that was supposedly a very good unit in its day.

What has surprized me just yesterday is that tapes appear to still be readily available, I as expecting looks of disbelief when I went into a store to ask for them but there they were - choice of 3 or 4 hour tapes (all Maxell) for a couple of bucks or thereabouts. I picked up a couple of 3 hour tapes as I seem to recall from back in teh day that the 4 hour units could be problematic.

[Marvel]

Max,

I think you may find some folks still making tape for the ADAT recorders, which are basically SVHS tapes, but higher quality in the shell and tape construction.THey cost a little more than what you would get at the supermarket, but they were meant to go through a lot of start/stop/rewind cycles, as they were used the same as a multitrack tape machine would be used in the studio..

Bruce

[artto]

Those of you using the Card Deluxe, have you ever tried recording using ASIO drivers with input from S/PDIF coax or toslink to your recording software?

I'm trying to get ASIO input from my Sony A7 DAT to Sound Forge or Cakewalk and niether one works, I can only do it with the Windows drivers on my E-MU 0404 hence I'm considering moving over to Card Deluxe. But if Card Deluxe won't do this I might as well keep what I have.

[Mallette]

I don't recall any issues with DAT to HDD transfers. Seems like they were just file dumps not requiring any drivers at all.

Get with CD tech support. Unless something has changed they are trully outstanding. It isn't a large outfit and the seem to really want to support the product.

Let me know how it turns out.

Regards,

Dave

[artto]

My better half got me a Card Deluxe for Christmas. I haven't had time or need to install it until recently for recording the Glen Ellyn - Wheaton Chorale's spring concert (25th Aniversary).

I am delighted to report that this card installed flawlessly! That in itself is worth the price.

Sound quality? [] No more stridency in sounds like female alto soprano or high strings. Warm & detailed. No weirdo audio routing problems (like the E-mu 0404 and their insane DSP software). The ASIO drivers work great. Absolutely terrific!

Thank you Mr. Mallatte for recommending this!!!

[Marvel]

Thank you Mr. Mallatte for recommending this!!!

He gets some things right... [] You know I will have to break down and get one of these.

Bruce