Chris A, Could you explain minimum phase analysis, please.

[Marvel]

46 minutes ago, Chris A said:

One thing that I've noticed from my conversations with the "mastering guys" online is that what they consider "appropriate" is probably 3x to 10x greater into EQ and limiting (on a dB scale) than what I consider appropriate, with the guys doing most of the popular music (pop, rock, etc.) the most intrusive.  I think that taste in music is sometimes all in the mouth with some of those doing the taste tasting (i.e., music producers).  For example, see http://mixbus.harrisonconsoles.com/forum/thread-5426.html.

 

Merry Christmas, Roy!

 

Chris

 

I thought most of the smart ones don't change an individual track more than 2db, and then all hell breaks loose when the mastering engineer gets hold of the mix.

 

Bruce

 

[Chief bonehead]

2 hours ago, Chris A said:

One thing that I've noticed from my conversations with the "mastering guys" online is that what they consider "appropriate" is probably 3x to 10x greater into EQ and limiting (on a dB scale) than what I consider appropriate, with the guys doing most of the popular music (pop, rock, etc.) the most intrusive.  I think that taste in music is sometimes all in the mouth with some of those doing the taste tasting (i.e., music producers).  For example, see http://mixbus.harrisonconsoles.com/forum/thread-5426.html.

 

Merry Christmas, Roy!

 

Chris

merry Christmas, Chris!

[Chief bonehead]

1 hour ago, dwilawyer said:

What kind of weed eater do you use?

why, the acoustic kind.....dont you have one?  merry Christmas Trav!

[Deang]

5 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

then i get the weedeater out

I really like that idea!

[Chris A]

After looking over the information above, it occurs to me that the answer to the question, "so what?" comes to mind as unanswered.  Can we hear the difference between minimum phase loudspeakers and those that aren't?  One source for this subject is from Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h, who was an audiophile enthusiast who liked horns and who took a keen interest in the subject of minimum phase and minimum group delay.  Here is a presentation that he put together on that subject before his untimely passing in 2013: http://www.melaudia.net/zdoc/jml_crossovers_etf04.pdf, starting on page 18.  This is a subject that is still gaining attention in the audiophile community, but note that the definitive word on the audibility of group delay hasn't been written: there are still differences of opinion of its audibility vs. frequency.

 

In my experience, once you've dialed in your loudspeakers for flat frequency response and time aligned the drivers using a DSP crossover, then listened to your system, improvements in the neutrality of timbre and clarity of the music via minimum phase response will become more noticeable.  After adding room acoustic treatments (notably adding absorption panels/curtains within 1-2 metres/yards of your front loudspeakers--L, R, and center), and moving all other acoustically reflective objects out of the way, you will have improved imaging to the point that improvements in loudspeaker phase or group delay become fairly easily audible when you do a A-B test. 

 

With K-402 high frequency horns on top of Jubilees, this difference in group/phase delay I've found to be extremely audible in home-sized rooms.  Apparently, as the ratio of direct to reflected acoustic energy improves (as it does with horn-loaded loudspeakers, and particularly with the K-402s), the effect of improving phase/group delays becomes even more audible. 

 

Add to this the controlled off-axis polars of the K-402, i.e., think of each of your front loudspeakers as being a set of narrow-coverage sectoral loudspeakers arrayed in an arc at the left and right front stereo locations, whose center loudspeaker of each array having flat frequency response but the outside loudspeakers having poor frequency response, you will see the effects of having poor polar directivity control. 

 

Once you get good polar control and low phase/group delay combined with a "zero reflection zone"  (room acoustics) just around your loudspeakers, it will create a hi-fi listening experience that will beat any that you've heard.

 

Chris

[Chris A]

As an example of the improvements attainable on group delay (the slope of the phase curve), below you will see the measured group delay of a La Scala II with flattened frequency response (orange trace) vs. a tri-amped JuBelle (K-510/K-69-A midrange and Beyma CP25 tweeter--green trace):

 

 

Here is a table of the Blauert & Laws group delay audibility thresholds vs. frequency from the above presentation:

 

 

As you can see, the effect of better horns and drivers and better crossovers using lower group delay filters has a measurable effect on group delay performance.  The phase vs. frequency plot of the La Scala II with passive crossover can't be plotted on one plot (over 4000 degrees of phase growth from 60-20000 Hz) relative to the JuBelle (about 360 degrees).