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FriscoDesi

Surround Speakers - Please Help

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I am currently using RF-82II (with Cambridge Audio CXA80) as 2-channel setup for Music/TV in the living room. I am planning to move RF-82II to the media room (14' x 14' x 10') and I also bought the matching center RC-62II and SVS PB1000 sub. Looking at Denon / Marantz receivers for 5.1 HT setup. I have been reading about surrounds vs bookshelfs as surrounds and I am even more confused :) I have 3 options so far...

 

1. Surrounds R14S - $148 (Fry's weekly deal)

2. Surrounds RS-42II - $180 (Amazon)

3. Bookshelf RB-61II - $250/pair (local CL)

 

The couch will be against the back wall and I will be putting the bookshelf speakers on the stands if I end up with that option. Please help in choosing the best match given my odd room dimensions and setup. If there are options to consider, please do suggest. Thanks in advance!

Edited by FriscoDesi

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The couch up against the back wall is very common from a design standpoint but creates many issues when it comes to audio. If you can move it off that wall a foot or two it will dramatically improve --

 

Bass which builds up along walls....it will negatively color the sound very bassy on that couch and sound like no bass elsewhere....

 

And surounds are compromised against a wall....and so are even the mains.  The proximity of your head to the wall allows reflections to smear what you hear so....

 

Move it off the wall if you can

Consider a few acoustic panels behind the couch on the wall to absorb reflections and then....

 

Any of those options would work.  The 14 is mini id say no...the 42s are good enough but id reco either --

 

Rs52iis...same as 42s but larger and more in line with your fronts

 

Or rb81s if you have several feet from the sides of the couch to the side walls.

 

What you need to know imo is room design and layout has a larger impact on audio than the specific speakers you buy.

 

Most people spend more on speakers than they need to and never realize their issues are their room...not their equipment. 

 

 

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Thank you RoboKlipsch. I will try moving the couch off the wall by a foot or so.

Edited by FriscoDesi
grammar

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Just FYI, I believe the RS-42II on amazon is per speaker, so it's actually $360 for the pair.

 

Also, Frys just had the RB-61 for $199 a pair (deal ended already). If you're patient, they will likely come out with a similar deal again soon. You can sign up for deal alerts on slickdeal.

 

I'm a big fan of bipole/dipole surrounds, but I think it's more of a personal opinion situation... don't think you can go wrong. Unless you listen to a lot of multi-channel music, I think you can save money on surrounds. YMMV...

 

Good luck!

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Thanks Weziewoo, I did get the Rb-61II bookshelves during the recent Frys sale. Now I need to find a pair of speaker stands that will hold these speakers (almost 18 lbs). I will keep looking for surrounds RS-52II and if I find one, I will move the RBs to the rear surround position and surrounds to the sides.

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18 minutes ago, FriscoDesi said:

Thanks Weziewoo, I did get the Rb-61II bookshelves during the recent Frys sale. Now I need to find a pair of speaker stands that will hold these speakers (almost 18 lbs). I will keep looking for surrounds RS-52II and if I find one, I will move the RBs to the rear surround position and surrounds to the sides.

 

These speaker stands look really nice. Heavy duty enough that they held my RB-81 with no problems.  Affordable too!

 

https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=108&cp_id=10828&cs_id=1082819&p_id=12281&seq=1&format=2

 

 

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@teaman, Awesome looking stands. These are 24" tall and the distance between the speaker bottom to tweeter is 12" (for RB-61II) which puts the total height at 36" - exactly at my ear level.

 

So question to you and all the audio gurus here - When using bookshelves as surrounds, is it recommended to put them at ear level or 1-2 feet above?

 

Thanks in advance

 

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2 hours ago, FriscoDesi said:

@teaman, Awesome looking stands. These are 24" tall and the distance between the speaker bottom to tweeter is 12" (for RB-61II) which puts the total height at 36" - exactly at my ear level.

 

So question to you and all the audio gurus here - When using bookshelves as surrounds, is it recommended to put them at ear level or 1-2 feet above?

 

Thanks in advance

 

I say yes 1 to 2 feet above ear level.  Go to you nearest AMC or Regal and look where they place their Klipsch surrounds.  Of course they are more like 6 feet because they need to accommodate many more seating positions.

Image result for amc theater klipsch

 

 

 

Bill

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7 hours ago, willland said:

I say yes 1 to 2 feet above ear level.  Go to you nearest AMC or Regal and look where they place their Klipsch surrounds.  Of course they are more like 6 feet because they need to accommodate many more seating positions.

Image result for amc theater klipsch

 

 

 

Bill

 

I agree the surrounds need to be above ear level.  I even like them above the back of the recliner or couch.   I prefer them slightly behind the viewing positions, and not too close, as well.  With our Heresy II surrounds behind and above, and our Klipschorn mains and Belle Klipsch center, with a good soundtrack, the two side walls come alive, with some sense of up or down as well.  With films like The Grey and The Impossible, the surround was incredible.

 

Here is what a subset of theaters used to look like, to wit, those first equipped for 70 mm Todd-AO and 6 channel stereo, usable for all subsequent 70 mm (& 35 mm).  You can't see the surrounds (they are behind fabric).   The surrounds were switchable to different parts of the theater (usually guided by a signal tone on a surround channel, below the frequency of a "brick wall" filter, so the audience couldn't hear the signal). There were also big speakers (looking like JBL C40s) in the ceiling, 58 years before Atmos, and the behind the screen speakers were JBL with 4 horn loaded woofers per channel, installed by Ampex for the 70 mm version of Todd-AO.  The curved screen increased the sense of immersion.

image.png.a9ba46ad108a9cb11bc7be2e4d9aba84.png

 

Films like Around the World in 80 Days (1956), Oklahoma!, Ben-Hur (1959) and Star Wars played at the theater pictured above, all in 70 mm.  In the case of Star Wars, when the big ship went overhead right near the beginning, it was fed to the big ceiling speakers, and the audience vocalized "Ahhhhh."

 

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@willland, @garyrc - thank you for the great advice. Finding a 36" stand (which will put the tweeter at 1ft above ear level) is a challenge but narrowed down to 3 options

 

Sanus NF36 (wood) - $99

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_051NF36B/Sanus-NF36-Speaker-Stands-Black-lacquer.html?tp=1386&awcr=12166467934&awdv=c&awkw=sanus+36"&awmt=e&awnw=o&awat=

 

Pangea Audio LS300 (steel) - $99

https://www.amazon.com/Pangea-Audio-LS300-Speaker-Stand/dp/B01EVNE96C

 

VideoSecu 2 Heavy duty 26.5" to 47" Adjustable Height Satellite Speaker Stand Mount - $40

https://www.amazon.com/VideoSecu-Adjustable-Height-Satellite-Speaker/dp/B000VRREPG/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_23_bs_lp_img_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=9WYCCSA3W2A0J5JBT9VH

 

Last option is tempting because of height flexibility but not too confident that it will hold the 18lbs speakers. Some reviews suggested adding canopy or dead weights to the base to make it more stable. I am still not too convinced. Pangea LS300 has good reviews in AudioAdvisor too. 

 

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14 hours ago, FriscoDesi said:

@willland, @garyrc - thank you for the great advice. Finding a 36" stand (which will put the tweeter at 1ft above ear level) is a challenge but narrowed down to 3 options

 

Sanus NF36 (wood) - $99

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_051NF36B/Sanus-NF36-Speaker-Stands-Black-lacquer.html?tp=1386&awcr=12166467934&awdv=c&awkw=sanus+36"&awmt=e&awnw=o&awat=

 

Pangea Audio LS300 (steel) - $99

https://www.amazon.com/Pangea-Audio-LS300-Speaker-Stand/dp/B01EVNE96C

 

VideoSecu 2 Heavy duty 26.5" to 47" Adjustable Height Satellite Speaker Stand Mount - $40

https://www.amazon.com/VideoSecu-Adjustable-Height-Satellite-Speaker/dp/B000VRREPG/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_23_bs_lp_img_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=9WYCCSA3W2A0J5JBT9VH

 

Last option is tempting because of height flexibility but not too confident that it will hold the 18lbs speakers. Some reviews suggested adding canopy or dead weights to the base to make it more stable. I am still not too convinced. Pangea LS300 has good reviews in AudioAdvisor too. 

 

 

I assume you are using a subwoofer.  If you crossover to the sub at 80 Hz [or higher, if your main speakers' - 3 dB point is higher than 80 Hz], the following probably won't matter.  But if you don't use a sub, putting the speakers on stands will ordinarily lose you bass. 

See Paul W. Klipsch's Cardinal Rule Number 5:

 

5. Freedom from cavities. The space under a speaker box formed by mounting it on legs can destroy the bottom octave of response and deteriorate the next 2 octaves.

 

Some people on the forum have put rigid, solid wood "aprons" around the riser or stand, flush with the front, sides, and backs of the speaker, to avoid a cavity.  An alternative is to put a solid block of wood under the speaker, the same length and width as the bottom of the cabinet, going all the way to the floor, firmly attached to avoid rattles.  Or, bookshelf speakers can be put on a bookshelf with cabinet doors that don't rattle be placed below the speakers.

 

Here are PWK's rules.  We don't see them often enough, and there are abridged versions of them floating around.  I think this list is complete.

 

Eight Cardinal Points of Reproduction 

 

 

1.Freedom from distortion. Minimum distortion requires small amplitudes of air mass movements, even at peak transient power output. Bass diaphragm motion should not exceed 1/16 inch. Corner placement reduces distortion three fourths.

 

2.Optimum size of speaker. Large enough to reproduce the lowest audible bass tone at peak transient power output without distortion; not so large as to produce a separation of bass and treble events. Corner placement increases effective size of speaker 4 times.

 

3.Freedom from rattles.

 

4.Freedom from shadows. Obstructions between high frequency speaker and listeners can not be tolerated - treble wave-lengths do not turn corners. 

 

 5. Freedom from cavities. The space under a speaker box formed by mounting it on legs can destroy the bottom octave of response and deteriorate the next 2 octaves.

 

6.Adequate spacing for stereo. In a 14 x 17 foot room, for example, the 17-foot wall is apt to be best for the stereo speaker array.

 

7.Accurate spatial values. Ability to localize the virtual sound sources in their original spatial relationships requires 3 widely spaced speakers, regardless of size or type, retention of this quality over a wide listening area requires toe-in of the flanking speakers.

 

8.Flanking speakers toed-in. Such toe-in is naturally provided by corner speakers. The effect is to reduce shift of the virtual sound source for different listener locations. This is the only way to achieve a wide area for listening.

 

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@garyrc I am going to print/save those cardinal rules. Thank you for adding to the reply.

 

I already have SVS PB1000 sub which will also move to the media room for 5.1 setup.

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Just so you know, the RB-61 II are $199 and ship free at Fry’s again today!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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32 minutes ago, teaman said:

Just so you know, the RB-61 II are $199 and ship free at Fry’s again today!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi teaman, this is my first post. I need some help if you can please. Going for 5.1 .

So far got got RP-280 FA (Pair was lucky to get price match for $519 each )

                          RC-62ii As a center.

                          Confused about  RB-61!!! and R-15M got both but planning to keep one for surround rear.

                          Sub woofer still looking :)

                          Due to my   room design I must have use wall mount for surround rear. I would love to keep my RB-61ii as surround but its weigh 16 lbs each and I bought this

                          https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000X9O8SI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 from amazon. I was reading reviews  and some people

                          Complained about speaker sliding out when they tilt 10 degree.

By any chance if you happened to know what will prevent  speakers sliding out. So far I was reading and some people claimed Blue tack , Velcro straps etc. I don't wanna drill hole

in my new speakers. Its really annoying why this mount makers not provide any lip in front , when they can give tilting option. R-15M will be only 5.5 lbs , that won't be an issue for falling but only RB-61 ii is huge.

Thanks for any tips. in advanced.

 

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Sorry, I have no experience with those wall mounts. Looks to me like the edges are very thin. Not sure I would trust that mount to hold my speakers.

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I prefer to always place surrounds at least 6-8 ft from the floor.  I've had success with both dipole/bipole and bookshelf.

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