MMF-7 Turntable recommendation - Underwoodwally

[mobile homeless]

I need to post some concerns and an addendum to my recommendation of the Music Hall MMF-7 turntable with the Goldring Eroica H cartridge if purchased from Underwoodwally in Atlanta. It was the subject of a lengthy thread ahwile back.

The MMF-7 has gotten very good reviews from Michael Fremer, and various online publications and gets good comments in the Vinyl Asylum forum where users have mostly great remarks for the price. While there are other big name tables that are more and have a finer pedigree, the MMF-7 seems to be a great choice in the NEW market if in the $800 range. It has a separate motor, apart from the plinth/chassis, good design, and a nice tonearm and comes with the Goldring Eroica HO MC cartridge. Goldring makes some nice musical cartridges.. The table with a GOOD working cartridge of this caliber is a good buy. It literally has not received any poor remarks across the board in any of the forums.

Several members ended up purchasing the MMF-7 from Underwoodwally in Atlanta who you see on Audiogon (is a dealer). He has the absolute lowest prices you can find on the NET for the MMF-7. In addition, he has a numerous feedback in Audiogon and not one negative.

Unfortunately, two of the forum members are experiencing problems with the tables or their Goldring Eroica H cartridges. Both Craig and Chris have cartridges that appear to have cantilevers that are canted to the side a few degrees. While Walter (Underwoodwally) has been very nice and cooperative, the cartridges are going to have to be sent back to Music Hall. HE seems genuine in helping here and is trying to get a replacement but nothing as of yet. In addition, Chris is having some problems with his output from the table. Nothing is definite here but it's enough of a problem to be noted as two tube units failed to produce good output.

It is important NOT to jump to conclusions regarding either the MMF-7 or Walter/Underwoodwally. I dont think it would be fair to either. Yet there is enough doubt to hold off on any purchases from him until some of these issues are resolved to satisfaction.

kh

[dbflash]

Mobile,

Thanks for the input.

Danny

[NOSValves]

Mobile,

I'm sure wally will take care of these issues. I talked to him late last week and he said if I decided to he would get me a RMA number to return the cartridge to Music Hall. I emailed him earlier this week about the RMA and havn't heard back yet.

Craig

[Chris Robinson]

I spoke with Wally this evening even though he was down with intestinal flu (yikes) ... I'm going to test the TT to see whether it's the arm or the cartridge (probably the latter). He said they have them in stock at Music Hall and a swap out will be handled expeditiously if it's either a cartridge or a TT. He noted that the quality of a company is measured on how quickly and well they resolved PROBLEMS. So, so far, the guy gets an "A" for effort.

Craig, did you get my note re. the caps for the Eico? If you could, shoot me a note at home. Our Epson email crashed at 4 pm so I haven't gotten anything since then.

Kelly, Roy Hall is looking for website help. Apparently he's been working with the son of a notable in England for the last year ... and progress is non-existent. Might be a good time (if you have interest) to jump in there with a sales pitch

Stay tuned for updates. This has been some week. J e e z.

[mobile homeless]

Well, that is good to hear. I know that Clipped & Latin Jazz got one as well so his experience will need to be counted for what it's worth. From what it sounds, Walter is a good chap willing to make amends for a faulty unit. I cant say it isnt worth his effort; he already got a few customers from this corner so good business is an intelligent angle to take, not to mention the obvious moral high ground. Here's hoping he follows through on the matter.

Thanks for the web work mention as well, Chris. I would love to do Music Hall's site as I have always liked the products he imports/exports as they represent good value along with common sense design. Creek is a neat little company and EPOS made some GREAT monitor speakers.

kh

[NOSValves]

Chris,

I recieved your emails and replied but they must of went to work. No big deal I havn't orderd a thing yet.

Has Wally been answering your emails ?? He hasn't answered mine in 4 days !

Craig

[NOSValves]

Chris,

Just forwarded the umpteen emials I sent to your work Addy this afternoon.

Craig

[Clipped and Shorn]

I talked to Wally today, he said he had the flu, and any problems would be taken care of. He said he sold about 14 units last month and has had no other problems. I am just back from a trip and will be setting up my unit tonight and will post my observations. He seems to be very receptive and always available for discussion, eg. he always picks up the phone, maybe because he is sick he is not answering email as promptly, who knows.

C&S

[mobile homeless]

Remember, there can be a VERY long breakin for turntables. And the Eroica H MC is famed for taking a LONG time as well, this from other users on the Vinyl Asylum. So be patient, the table will be sounding better as the week wears on. The more you use it, the faster it will be. Some users report the Eroica still improving after a month. MC breakin time is not overnight.

Take a look at the cantilever as well to make sure it is not bent to the side like the shot below from Chris Robinson's example.

kh

[Chris Robinson]

Update here ... After some additional trouble-shooting this morning, one of the wires from the cartridge terminals (and up through the arm) is suspect. Given the bent cantilever and this additional issue, Walter said to send it on back to him and he'll replace it with a new one from stock (that he's visually verified).

It was unfortunate that I got a "lemon", but he was great to resolve the problem with. He gets an A+ on the customer service end.

I'll come back and update this thread when the new unit arrives (probably in about 10 ten days given the two one-way trips).

[NOSValves]

I recieved a message from him today on my Voice Mail. He is opening a brand new Turn Table and confirming it has a good cartridge on it and sending me the cartridge and then I return the defective one back to him. Great service when you concider he's sicker than a dog.

Craig

[sunnysal]

questforsound@aol.com (also on audiogon) beats wally by $10 at $839 delivered in US...at that price it is REALLY hard to imagine getting anything better...simply ask the dealer for him to do a visual inspection before shipping out...tony

[NOSValves]

Actually Wally was $825 to my door ! So who beats who ?

[Clipped and Shorn]

The MM7 is very sensitive to vibrations. When I touch the table it sits on or walk on the floor near it, it picks this up as low rumbling bass. Is this normal? Is this why I need to get one of the Isolation Boxes for it to sit it on? The Technics is much less sensitive to this and it sits right next to the MM7 on the same table.

c7s

[edster00]

Has anyone heard of or had any experience with this TT isolation box?? Any thoughts?

[NOSValves]

Clipped,

I used some felt pads about a 1/8" thick under the legs and it seamed to help it allot. I don't even know how I ended up with the little buggers but saved them thinking they may come in handy.

Craig

[Clipped and Shorn]

When I turn the volume way up, or if I boost bass with the preamp and play loud, the MM7 TT causes major low end distortion. For some reason the Technics does not do this. What is going on? Is the HO MC cart on the MM7 that much more sensitive? Must it have an isolation box? Is there something wrong with the MM7 set up, eg. cartridge out of alignment or something else. I assume the bass vibrations from the speaker are being picked up by the MM7 cart. It is really bad and I need to figure this out if I am gooing to keep the MM7.

Why is there so much distortion in the bass when it is turned up loud, or when the bass is boosted on the preamp. Is this because the MM7 unit is so much LESS isolated than the Technics which does not pick this up?

The vibrations of walking around the TT are called "footfalls", so I assume that the bass vibrations from the speaker are being transmitted to the cartridle through the table which the TT is sitting on. The Technics table tonearm is more internally isolated than the Music Hall. In this respect the Technics is better designed. The Music Hall Plinth sits on three solid feet which directly translate any vibration from its supporting table to the cartridge. I do not see how anyone can use the Music Hall without some kind of isolation box, unless it is miles away from any speakers and anyone walking around on the floor.

[mobile homeless]

Hence my four or five posts on the importance of a GOOD STAND for any table of this sort. If you place on a standard cabinet or table near something like the CW, you are going to get serious feedback. And turning the bass up (dont know why you are doing this anyway) is going to exacerbate the problem. It is not the tonearm that is isolated on the SL1200 but the huge base with those cushioned plastic feet with the rubber shock absorbers. In this way, the SL1200 is good which is why it can be used anywhere.

Sounds like you have a particularly bad stand.cabinet and are also close to one or both of the speakers. My recommendation is to go with some form of isolation base for the short term and then eventually a nice equipment rack eventually which will improve the sound of your WHOLE system, tube amps, preamp, CD player and all. A good rack makes a big difference. A good turntable base/stand is imperative.

Once isolated from these vibrations, vibrations that affect ANY table with not suspension, the table will handily outperform the other. It just takes a little to get there. The one advantage with sprung tables like the Linn is the acoustic isolation AND the good parts. But it is much more tweaky.

You need either a wall mount TT stand, an isolation base of some sort preferably resting on a good stand, all things I mentioned in a previous post as VERY important. Once solved, the imaging and detail will be GREATLY improved.

The Isolation Box with a MMF-5

As for the "Isolation Box" at least it is cheap and worth a shot with a 30 day money back note. I posted a pic of the unit here in this forum a short while back. Many use inner tubes under tables like this. The isolation box looks like a bargain perhaps. BEFORE GOING WITH IT, talk to the seller about the details and your situation. I dont know this box first hand nor the seller.

kh

[Clipped and Shorn]

Kelly,

I think you are on the mark again with the exlanation being feedback from the Cornwalls. Now I am hearing that same bass distortion with both the Technics and the Music Hall. The sound starts to break up pretty bad on the high volumes or when I boost the bass. I am boosting the bass just as an experiment to push things to the outer limit to purposely exaggerate the problem so I can analyze and/or isolate the problem itself.

Now I was worrying that the woofers in my Cornwalls are shot! What a depressing thought. They sound fine at normal volume, but when I push it up the sound breaks up pretty badly.

Your comment about the feedback is a good one because maybe it means my woofers are not really shot. Both turntables are sitting on a long "library table" that has an extra foot in the middle center for support. However, I can hear footfalls and the slightest touch of the table causes audible bass noise in the speakers. When I lift the turntable cover, that operation is quite audible. This is pretty much the same for both TTs but the MMF7 is worse, eg. it picks it up more and breaks up way more than the Technics, but they both do it.

I have been in contact with Tom who sells the isolation box. I will order one and give it a go. Meanwhile I am hoping that my Cornwalls are not shot. I know that when I heard Mark's Altec system, he could turn up those Altec 416Bs way loud with a big SS amp and they could handle it just fine, then again he was using CDs as source. I will go check that right now with my Rega Planet and see what gives. That will tell me whether it is the turntable or the speakers. Hold on......

OK, with CD player on the same table as the other turntables the bass does not break up like with the turntables. At loud volume the Corwall woofers do not sound totally great, but I am thinking less like they are shot than they have just reached their limit. However with the turntables the bass distortion is more likely caused by the feedback situation you mentioned as would be predicted from this set up.

Would it be the case that the MMF7 with HO/MC exaggerates this feedback problem way more than the Technics with MM cart, which as you say is designed to be played anywhere? I am trying to decide if this particualar MMF7 is OK and that the gross sonic problem can be more or less explained by the vibration/feedback from the woofers. The preamp tested fine on Marks bench, so I think it less likely that there is something wrong with the phono section. It also has a fresh set of Telefunkens.

I didn't realize this feedback problem could be so gross. I will need to solve the problem because when I install the Altec speaker system as planned the vibrations will be all the more intense in this room. I have plenty of carpeting, so I am wondering just how these vibrations are transmitted to the table holding the TTs. Is it through the floor or the air? Why isn't this problem totally common with everyone using a turntable? Do you use an isolation box or something like the spoons with your Linn? What happens when you turn up your Cornwalls loud with the HF81? and then even louder? Will your sound start to break up? Is this a normal expectation with any Cornwalls? Any speakers?

I am not saying I play music this loud normally, I am just trying to examine the boundary conditions to define the limiting parameters as distinct from a malfunction or defective component. I would like to be able to play music loud on occasion, what I would call performace level, and not have the speakers break up. I was impressed with the Altec system I heard, it seemed capable of more volume than my cornwalls which start to distort sooner, although sound great at lesser volumes.

c7s

[mobile homeless]

Ok...A lot going on in the above post.

Yes, quickly stated, the problem is in your massive libary table/floor which bring the vibrations from the floor up through the legs and into the top. The SL-1200 has that heavy, damped base and the feet with the shock asorber inner part (I remember them well - I also have a package of spare feet for the 1200). It will be affected slightly less than some other tables because of this, BUT will not sounds as good as the other table isolated properly, all things being equal. The MMF-7 has CONE feet and also a very unforgiving suspension per say biased towards detail but necessary to have a good stand in a problematic room with either heavy vibrating speakers, sprung wooden floor, poor stand, or ALL OF THE ABOVE, which sounds like your case and the worst possible scenerio.

IF you put the $1500 VPI Scout, the Rega P3, the VPI HW-19 Jr, or any other un-sprung table in that same situation, you will have BAD RESULTS and feedback. Indeed, this is not good for your tube equipment either. The vibrations affect them as well. Others have diff stands, rooms, and FLOORS. Obiviously, if you were on a concrete slab, the problem would be reduced. You would just be in a s h i t t y house! heh...

Ironically enough, the Rega Planet, which also does NOT have any suspension (unlike almost ALL players), can be vibration prone and skip if VERY loud. I have seen this on my own system and I have a GOOD stand. But the dreaded Cornwall, which is a BEAST, is very close. AGain, you need the good stand at least. Or move away from the offending speakers.

Ultimately, a stand COMBINED with a TT base will probably solve the whole matter. But as stated, the TT base should help a lot. It can be leveled which is a good thing. For now, turn it DOWN a bit. You actually sound like you are getting some feedback to your GEAR as well. I can turn my system up VERY loud...too loud, without distortion, this with Moondogs or EICO or any other amp I have auditioned. Still, the volume is not always your friend. No need to turn the bass up like that any more. You are getting rumble as well, probably. Do you get woofer cone bouncing about in your CW? Let me know on that one.

kh

ps- you also sound like you are clipping your amp possibly or reaching feedback within the tube amps from the vibration or combination of all the above.

EDIT: When you amplify that feedback, you will get HUGE distortions in those CW as well. Ditto if the whole ensemble is a vibrating like a Las Vegas Cheap suite!