mike stehr Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 Yeah, my girlfriend is getting rather chapped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 Two bigger egos one will not find, kelly and craig locked in combat sublime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted November 18, 2002 Author Share Posted November 18, 2002 What ego ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 Time for bed. This thread has certainly been a "twanger". My two cents ... "eschew obfuscation" and "the truth is an absolute defense". Pax vobiscum. Sweet dreams! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 It is so symbolic of the human condition; this pissing contest between Craig and Kelly. One makes a suggestion, the other takes offense, one rebuts, the other goes nuts. Hello? Perhaps a little reading is actually in order, you two are conversing but neither is listening. It is easy to whine, but understanding takes time. Put this **** to bed and solution the problem without resorting to posturing. It is sad really to watch the two of you defend yourselves when it was never necessary in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted November 19, 2002 Author Share Posted November 19, 2002 Crash you know I truely think your right !! This stuff isn't worth the headache. Peace Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 Craig, got the Eico back yesterday (a day early) -- intact and well-packed ... Thanks for the effort there. Brought it home, hooked it up, and everything sounds just wonderful. I know there's some break-in period but it sounds very sweet and BETTER. The phono section sounds very quiet as you said, and nice as well. It just seems that I have to crank the volume to 6 or 7 to get the sound to fill the room. Not a complaint, just an observation. The line stage on this amp IS wonderful ... I listened to 4-play's Elixir which I think is one of my better CD recordings and the room just jumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted November 21, 2002 Author Share Posted November 21, 2002 Chris, Glad to hear it made it there in good shape and you like the results. As far as the Phono section when using a real low input MC cartridge like the one on the MMF-7 you will have to turn it up more than say a CD to get the same volume from your speakers. Are the channels pretty well balanced now ? I thought they were for me. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 Craig, I was curious, since you now have the MMF-7 as well, what your opinion was of the table, in relation to some of the other tables you have. I was thinking of selling both my Dual's and upgrading to something better... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 Craig, the channels seem to be perfectly balanced like you said. It must have been a tube issue that was solved with the replacements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted November 21, 2002 Author Share Posted November 21, 2002 Chris, Great I'm glad she is working top notch for you. After you have given it a good break in report back on anything different you may hear. Mike, The jury is out on that yet. I'm waiting for a replacement needle from Music Hall. When I get it I'm going to install the new one first on my favorite table before the MMF-7 and see just how much difference there is between the tables with the same needle mounted on there tonearms. I have a funny feeling most of the difference is in the needle. I'm sure I'm going to get blasted for that here. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 I would love to hear your opinion. Let me know... I gotta say, my Dual has never sounded better! I'm really enjoying my rig at the moment... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 Mike, I say keep your Dual. You'll more than likely be just as happy and if happy now, why throw $800 away. I don't see the need based on the current happiness with your system. Craig, no blasting from this way. WE just have different perceptions, tastes, experiences, etc, almost across the board, top to bottom, in all facets. I frankly almost don't see any similarities. As anyone would say, it doesn't mean my opinion is better or vice versa. We are just dealing with fundamental differences across the board. If anyone were to read the text in this very thread, they might perceive them. I have owned many turntables and have four sitting here now. My wife, who teaches English, is teaching a seminar on American Culture and the impact of Music and Literature from Civil War to Present. I had to come up with a system for her class and it was an interesting task. On the turntable front, I went through a load of old tables, some direct drive and some belt drive. Some were surprisingly good given some attention and care. The simple belt drives seemed to sound the best. I ended up throwing some Mobil 1 Synthetic oil in the bearing wells and this helped a few, not to mention removing any and all auto features. The heavy Duty Diskmat from the 80s did wonders for the platter (but just on the old tables with standard platters) as well as replacing the feet with Navcom pucks and wrapping the arms with Teflon tape. It was a fun experiment and a bit over the top. But the results were promising. But in all my experiments, I never came CLOSE to the sound of my Linn LP-12. On the best of the bunch, I installed my spare Linn K-9 cartridge which was a nice MM unit that ranked pretty high for this fare. There was some good sound to be had here for cheap, sound that did beat digital in naturalness. But the quiet, sense of timing, BLACKNESS OF BACKGROUND, and solidity of image was just on a whole different league with the Scottish table. No doubt in my mind (or Audrey for that matter). No, I didn't have any used 70s tables on hand like the higher end Thorens such as the TD-125 II that Pat was referring to, a table that is not in the sub 150 level price range and available with separate arm. But to me, the Duals, lower Thorens, and the host of Japanese alternatives from Denon to Marantz to Yamaha etc, will not equal better table these days. OF course exceptions can be found. And a great example of one of the better Thorens will do damn well. BUT, many of the tables purchased off ebay have mediocre arms, shot and sloppy bearings (Arm and main), speed regulation problems, ringing platters, etc. Most were just not that great to begin with. Some can be made good, yes. But do they equal the better tables these days? Again, I have found this to be NO. The difference is actually WAY MORE involved than the cartridge. The main bearing, platter, motor, plinth construction, and arm, arm bearing, in addition to choice of suspension and implementation have a dramatic impact on the sound when YOUR SYSTEM REACHES A CERTAIN POINT OF RESOLUTION AND LEVEL THAT THIS BECOMES ascertainable. Some old tables can really come through here. Hell, my Linn is 17 years old. In my system, the difference between two tables, both with quality cartridges is readily apparent if you know what to look for and listen to a ride variety of music and difference volumes including acoustic, horns, strings, etc all the way to completely electronic and synthesized. Sometimes the differences are not readily apparent unless playing a sax solo in live venue, where you can hear the venue space. Sometimes a the most simple, acoustic, live recordings can really reveal what is missing and THERE ....and sometimes these are subtle distinctions that are masked with volume or a poor room/setup. Then again, a table or system might falter with congested rock or classical at higher volume. Regardless, they are many variable going on here. But as stated in the beginning of this post, these are different opinions, viewpoints, levels of importance, and experiences, all of which have an affect on the perceptions and take on the whole equation. As for the MMF-7, I think it one of the best deals in a new table without going over $1000 including a fine cartridge. I think it will be quieter then the majority of tables you can get used. It just won Budget Component of the Year in Stereophile (in a tie) for whatever that's worth and was in the runner-up list for Best Analog Component of the Year as well. Again, I don't exactly count Stereophile as a great source these days but the products included were some pretty good competition. So, we all have to make the call on what we can and cant hear or deem important in the scheme of things. Obviously, there are some fine used choices out there. But as for analog, there is a LOT MORE going on then just the cartridge. The same can be said for most of a system. Some dont find these things that big a difference and some do. Again, it's experience, taste, importance, and opinion all rolled up together with our twisted personalities. I just got more twisted after the 12th paragraph.... kh ps- btw, Chris, great that your EICO is sounding to your liking! I expect it to get better and better as you use it over the next week or so. Excellent that it worked out great and good that Craig did a nice job with the soldering - it did look nice in the pics. Your cartridge is a high output MC (you couldnt use a low output via just the EICO) but the EICO doesnt really have a lot of gain in the phono stage anyway, so the volume is going to be coming up to 6-7 to fill the room. I'll shoot you a note this eve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted November 21, 2002 Author Share Posted November 21, 2002 Mobile, Glad to see you back and a great post to boot !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 Yeah, well that post made up for any sanity I gained while getting some work done and staying off this place for a few needed days. Holy Paragraph overload. I dont think I even read it! kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted November 21, 2002 Author Share Posted November 21, 2002 Kelly, We may have are differences but all and all we always come out friends in the end. I also think most of the members enjoy are heated discussions especially when they realise that its mostly both of us not carefully reading each others posts or reading something into it that just osn;t there and then going off half cocked LOL !! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 Group hug. Now that we're all one big happy family again, could someone please tell me what the update is on the Scott? Craig, is it on it's way to you yet? Kelly, huh...you did buy it, right? Imagine my report on Heritage if I'm forced to hook them up to the Aragon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 My general take on this in open minded fashion is the EICO HF-81 line stage is perhaps the most sublime line stage there is in vintage integrateds, bar none. If you are LINE STAGE digital person and want amazing sound, it's the ticket. It's extremely open, airy, quick, and modern sounding. On the other hand, I just dont think it's phono stage stock equals the better Scott amps. Period. Perhaps with some mods to the circuit and top flight parts. But a stock EICO HF-81 phono stage will more than likely come in second to the Scott 299. I have not heard the phono stage of the Scott yet, but I am willing to hedge a bet here. So if going EICO HF-81, either you need to MOD the phono (and this is completely including RIAA and quiet/hum issues) or you need a nice sep phono preamp which works great (I have done this with great success). Or if totally phono crazy with NO interest in tweaking or an external phono, just get a Scott. But personally, I think you are making the wrong call with the Heresy knowing the path you have already taken. See my post in your Heresy thread. You need the Klipschorn. Stop screwing around and getting stuff we both know you are going to SELL once again, like 99% of the stuff you have purchased. Mark my words, the Heresy will be on the chopping block. You already are itchign for SET exploration and the Heresy aint going to get your there. And even with PP tubes, you will ultimately want more. Stop wading in ankle deep. Get some Klipschorns, preferably older vintage than 80s. I dont see any choice now besides building your own from altec parts. It aint gonna happen. Bite the bullet. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 22, 2002 Share Posted November 22, 2002 LOL I hear ya Yoda. Well of course they'll end up on the chopping block. I'll take a nibble and then off they go. I've made no secret of the fact that ANYTIME I have EVER been exposed to Heritage -- it has been nothing but an ear blistering experience. To be honest, these three-ways scare the hell out of me. Besides, a big horn purchase is going to have to wait until all my money rolls in. Hell, I just remembered that besides the Aragon, I've got two matched pairs of Amperex 7308's sitting out there, and I should probably move the Thalia as well. I got a few things to straighten out before I can start thinking about K-horns (and a thing or two to learn as well). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 22, 2002 Share Posted November 22, 2002 Then why did you even WASTE time with that Heresy blind alley? You are just creating more work for all that are surrounding dear-departed Dean and his Audiophile-Nervosa! RESIST the urge! Stop buying stuff, and set your sites. I dont even like three-way speakers on the whole. I have been a 2-way monitor person ALL MY LIFE, even when getting larger speakers, they have been two way. But the three-way Heritage (besides the Heresy) is not a big deal and perhaps the only one I would choose, besides going down the Altec/JBL DIY path. Otherwise, I would opt for a single-source speaker like the Lamhorn or Hedlund Horn or a GREAT pair of top notch monitor speakers. But the Heresy is the LAST choice on my vintage Klipsch list, and I mean VERY last. Based on the pics of your listening room downstairs, you could set something up VERY nice. And the carpet sure looks better! heh... I dont know what you would really use it for to be honest if going the Heresy route. Man, I dont know what got into your crazy head...besides more Deang disease ala DQ-10 madness! kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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