Power for Heritage series speakers

[Rudy81]

Would having an amp that has 200+ WRMS of clean power be wasted on a pair of Belles?

I know the speakers are rated at 100 watts maximum, but am wondering if more amp power would provide even better sound.

Thanks

[justin_tx_16]

With Klipsch speakers it is Quality before Quantity

Right now I am powering two Klipsch Heresys with 80 watts per channel. I don't get half-way through the poewr before my ears start to hurt, with no distortion by the way.

I use a dual powered, vintage Technics amp. $0.00 and sounds awesome.

What kind of amp is it? I know it is probably not a tube, but what brand/model?

You will find that people who use tubes will say that 20 watts is more than enough. It is true with tubes, and some what with SS.

[Rudy81]

I have two amps that are more than adequate and as you say, half way up is definately enough to shake the house.

One is a Harmon Kardon integrated amp with 80 watts and the other is a Marantz A/V receiver with 100 wpc.

Both are more than powerful enough.

I was looking at an ATI 2505, 250 Wpc. I was just wondering if all else being equal, more power would provide the speaker with more capability and hence a sound improvement.

[justin_tx_16]

do you have models? that will really help

[Rudy81]

Sorry, Marants SR 7000 and HK 665, the HK is old and just an integrated amp.

[justin_tx_16]

That Marantz is excellent! You get a ton for you money with it. I have always loved Marantz products, but no one really talks about them around here.

Here is just some food for thought...

The details surrounding my technical background are really quite inconsequential. Summers in retail, winters in correctional facilities for the perfectly capable. Desperate for the dollar, I'd often drug customers and dress them up like French maids. When they'd awaken, my friends and I would thank them for shaving our backs and assure them we wouldn't tell anybody. This was the sort of activity that would keep food on the table and our young bodies healthy for the beach. In the springtime, we'd make capacitor helmets with heatsinks on them. Then, we'd test each other's knowledge of schematics while running downhill. It was really quite breathtaking . . . you should try it sometime.

At 21, I left home in search of a career and a hamburger. I wandered into a school somewhere. I liked it there. I was regularly mistreated and spoken down to for being insolent. It was just like home, only it cost more. Inevitably, I found the career, but I still search for the burger . . . .

Now, as the editor of three A/V (short for audio/video, baby) magazines, I search for the perfect receiver. It was on the evening of December 13, 1999, that a suspicious package arrived at my flat. I suspected something was up when the label read: From Bazzel-X (aka Marantz). Using my keen instincts and a utility knife, I carefully opened the package. Inside, there appeared to be a normal A/V receiver. I paid it no mind until...wait, a trick . . . Dr. Evil must have been behind this! You ask how I know? What other person would claim that a receiver costing only $799 could be capable of features like 100 watts by five channels of discrete power output into 8 ohms, 24-bit/96-kilohertz digital-to-analog converters for the highest possible sound fidelity for DVD audio playback, multiroom/multisource capability, onscreen programming, and Dolby Digital, DTS, Pro Logic, five-channel stereo, and other surround modes? What if I told you it also had six-channel direct inputs for future format upgrades, preamp outputs, a D-Bus remote connection, 50 station presets for AM/FM listening, six video and S-video inputs, a total of five digital inputs (two Toslink, three coaxial), two digital outputs (one of each type), and a very groovy universal/ learning remote? Honestly, would you believe me? Anyone who'd make such claims would certainly have to be mad.

The Marantz SR-7000 manages to tuck all of these features (and more) into a sleek chassis measuring 18 by 6 1/4 by 18 1/8 inches and weighing a stout 32 pounds. Clearly, there's no Swedish-made, pump-style receiver enlarger needed here. (That's not my bag, anyway.)

The SR-7000 offers outstanding flexibility for virtually any system one could think up. The multiroom/multisource alone makes it possible to connect an additional A/V system in any room of the house, such as a bedroom or game room. This can be done in several ways, one of which is to add a five-channel amp in the desired room. Multisource capability then allows you to listen to a CD player in one room while people in another room are viewing a movie in full 5.1 surround! Of course, the possibilities don't stop there. If you really want to go nuts, you can use this receiver as the center of a multiroom audio/video system in which every zone in your home has sound. Very groovy, baby.

For our testing purposes, I installed the SR-7000 in my personal home theater and connected it to my DSS receiver, DVD player, LD player, VCR, CD player, MiniDisc player, tape deck, and Sega gaming system. Although the unit was easy enough to set up without referring to the owner's manual, the instruction manual is extremely complete and even has a quick-connect foldout to make installation a snap for the novice.

Using the onscreen programming guide, I was quickly able to navigate my way through the various setup options, including assigning inputs, individual speaker levels, speaker size, and other room corrections.

I found the remote, in particular, to be very sexy and easy to use. I'd rate it among the top three remotes packaged with a receiver that I've ever used. Not only is it comfortable to hold, it's also very easy to set up. The various-shaped buttons make it even easier to use when the lights are out. Oh behave!

But enough chatlet's see how she performs. Marantz's slogan is "Because Music Matters," so I decided I'd first give the SR-7000 a two-channel audio workout. I removed my personal collection of Burt Bacharach CDs from the "Shaguar" and dug deeply into my repertoire to see what would tickle my fancy. Alas, nothing did, so I looked elsewhere. I finally inserted my first selectiona special recording of the Eagles' "Hotel California" seemed to fill the bill.

I connected the SR-7000 to my Mirage HDT speaker ensemble. This receiver uses UL-approved collars that will accept either banana plugs (the optimum connection) or bare wirethey won't accept spades. The Mirage HDT speakers are known for their awesome detail on music, but they demand the use of very powerful amplifiers to make them come alive. I anticipated that I'd have to switch them out with another set of speakers, but (to my surprise) the Marantz SR-7000 was able to make them open up with exceptional clarity and detail. Even at lower volume levels, with no enhanced settings, the receiver pushed the speakers effortlessly. The bass was very tight, and the vocals were very smooth.

The SR-7000 displayed a warmth that's more characteristic of a tube-type amplifier. This was by far the most musical A/V receiver I've ever heard. Track after track, I noted a very open and transparent soundstage. The SR-7000 didn't seem to taint the sound like other integrated receivers do.

I particularly enjoyed the five-channel stereo mode. I personally would never listen to music in anything but two-channel; however, it's nice to have the ability to make your $1,500 rear speakers do more than just complement the mains from time to time.

Before I get in to theater performance, I'd also like to comment about one part of this receiver that we rarely ever discuss in our reviewsthe AM/FM tuner. Typically, we don't review this particular aspect of a receiver because, to be honest, we've never seen one that's above-averageone that blows wind up our skirts. However, the AM/FM tuner on the SR-7000 could very well be one of the nicest tuners integrated into an A/V receiver. Sure, having 50 presets is something to brag about, but only if you can actually tune in to 50 stations, right? I live in an area of Orange County, California, known for poor reception. With the SR-7000, I was able to pull in stations I never knew existed. This is a very nice touch.

Finally, the moment of truth . . . it was time to find out what this evil receiver is really made of. I popped a copy of The Matrix into my DVD player and began the theater performance evaluation. Right out of the gate, the amp showed some guts and was able to punch through action-packed scenes with ease. At no point was there a need to back off the volumethis receiver delivered an enormous soundstage, complete with width, depth, and detail. To be honest, I was shocked at the performance. Not only were the details exceptional, but the midbass from my power-hungry Mirage speakers kicked me straight in the wedding tackle.

I noted that the vocals and onscreen information were precise and uncolored, even at higher volume levels. Sounds were placed accurately in the room with virtually no audible crosstalk.

For years, I've preached the importance of pre/pro and amp separates because there has never been an A/V receiver capable of both the detail and awesome processing capabilities of a preamp/ amp combination. I won't go so far as to say the SR-7000 is better than separates, but it sure as heck raises my expectation of what other receivers ($799 or otherwise) should be capable of.

The SR-7000 is very shagadelic indeed, leaving me with thoughts that the perfect A/V receiver does exist.

Highlights

Great bargain at only $799

Loaded with features

The most musical receiver Clint has ever heard

HT Labs Measures: Marantz SR-7000 A/V Receiver

The above measurement shows that the SR-7000's left amplifier channel, with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, began clipping at 0.01% distortion and 68.4 watts. The amp reaches 0.1% distortion at 86.6 watts and 1% distortion at 105.1 watts, as shown above. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier began clipping at 131.3 watts and reaches 0.1% distortion at 165.5 watts and 1% distortion at 189.5 watts.

The analog frequency response was +/-0.57 decibels from 20 hertz to 20 kHz. The response dropped to -1.04 dB at 10 Hz and to -51.3 dB at 50 kHz. THD+N from the amplifier was less than 0.042% at 1 kHz while producing 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load.

From the Dolby Digital input to the loudspeaker outputs, the left, center, and surround channels are all flat, +/-0.74 dB from 20 Hz to 20 kHz.

From the Dolby Digital input to line-level output, the LFE channel is +0.02 dB at 20 Hz when normalized to 40 Hz and reaches the 6-dB down point at 118 Hz.AJ

I don't know much about the Harman Kardon 665. I have learned though that the 430 (which is also older, the 1970's, is one of the best receivers (sound quality wise) around. Just goes to show that age does not mean diddly when the product started out good.

[Rudy81]

Thanks for the review. In fact it is an excellent A/V receiver. The only complaints have been from folks who use a subwoofer. I understand that the sub will not come on-line if you select "large speaker" for the theater during setup. They get around that by selecting "Small speaker".

Frankly, I love my older stuff. I have been using the HK for running two center channel speakers.

I am putting together my dream Home Theater and just aquired my last of the speakers I wanted. All older stuff I might add.

I will have my Belle's for left and right front, a pair of Hereseys for center and a pair of Forte's for the left and right effects speakers.

I think this will rock when I get it all put together.

I was just wondering if the added power of the ATI 2505 would enhance everything.

Right now I'm saving for the DLP projector. Sharp Z9000 hopefully with a Stewart Firehawk screen.

Thank you for the information.

Rudy

[justin_tx_16]

I honestly think you would be better off with some tubes than a new SS. But you really cannot go wrong with your selections thus far

[JohnA]

Look at the graph of the power vs distortion curve on the Marantz. Your Belles will be operating entirely in the vertical portion of the curve along the left axis. The distortion is quite high there. A 250 watt amp will probably be even worse. It would be a complete waste with Belles. I'd look for a 30 to 50 watt Class A power amp like the Monarchy(?).

John

[Rudy81]

So the Belle efficiency causes the Marantz to operate in the low power, high distontion range. What a bummer.

[Rudy81]

However, I note that between 30 and 70 watts, the curve is pretty flat. Surely the Belles use more than 30 watts with any reasonable level of volume?

[Brian HCM#1]

I rather have the extra power 100-200 watts, I like the headroom that it gives. When your running a 20-50 watt amp and crank it your more opt to damaging the drivers. With more power you don't have to turn up the volume to get the desired level without stressing the speakers. Remember, if your amp is rated at 250 watts you'll never listen to 250 watts, it would probably be between 40-70 watts.

[IndyKlipschFan]

It's the first 1-5 watts, trust me, you want clean...

[spfrss]

With Heritage you shuold be driven by the search

for quality of power, not quantity.

Personally, I use with my Klipschorns a 40 watts per

channel tube amp, which uses 845 tubes in A class.

Even playing Mahler synphonies with their huge orchestras

I think I never use more than 10 watts.

Cheers

Mauro (& '99 Klipschorns)

[Rudy81]

Wow, this is beginning to look like the speaker cable discussions. Obviously quality over quantity is critical.

As far as that graph of the Marantz, I'm not sure the distortion is truly that high at low power levels. I will tell you one thing. The Belle's sound great at any reasonable level. Both amplifiers provide good tight bass and crisp highs.

I need to look further into the reviewers graph and see if it is accurate.

[Dale W]

Long term goals need to come into play here: If your future plans are to stay in the heritage line up and maybe add some k-horns or more belles in the future then I would start investing in a single ended setup (tube amp).

I'm not a fan of these mutli functioning setups. To many things to play around with and to much packed into a single chassi.They out date to fast and leave little room for upgrading.

Once you have your amps in place, wich is the heart of the system. Then you can buy whatever procesor you want and start pluging in components. When the procesor out dates or fails to meet your needs then replace it. Now your olny dealing with one upgradable component. Everything else you buy the best you can afford and let her ride.

I've owned 15 to 20 different amps over the years and kick myself in the *** every time i think about what i've sold. I started out in the world of tube amps and fell into the marketing ploy of the solid state gear as it came on line and improved. Now that i have 7k tied up in ss amps , i'm going back to the begining and researching a single ended system once again.

Conrad / threshold / nak / bryston / class A / rotel the list goes on and on. I wish i could go back in time and talk some sense into myself when i was young and stupid enough to part with some of these amps.

I know it's hard to sit back and save money for what you really want and it takes a long time to save but if you spend olny what you have right now just for the sake of buying something you fall victum to the upgrading blues.

[Brian HCM#1]

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On 11/20/2002 12:58:41 AM IndyKlipschFan wrote:

It's the first 1-5 watts, trust me, you want clean...

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That is true to a point, I don't listen to my music that low and I prefer the extra power. Its when people start pushing the low wattage amps to their max the drivers will start to fail. I am using a Sunfire Cinema Grand and run the mains in the current source, which give you the tube sound effect with the extra power. Kind of the best of both worlds.

[sunnysal]

while I would say that 1-5 watts would not float my boat, 250 watts as you mention for the ATI unit is WAY OVERKILL, you will never, ever use more than 50 watts on those speakers. get yourself a really good, low-noise unit that puts out anywhere between 20 and 100 watts and you will be in hog heaven. regards, tony

[Audio Flynn]

Belle is 103 db at 1 watt at 1 meter

16 watts should give you 108 db with the general rule of double the wattage gives 1 db increase in SPL.

If you have a 30' x 30' room and you need to fill it that may generate the necessity of higher power.

When I can afford 15 watts of class A with EL 34 tubes or find some vintage amp deal my Chorus IIs will be smoking. My room is 14' x 20'.

Tony,

How many watts for the Dynaco?

[sunnysal]

Flynn,

the MkIVs give 40 watts in pentode and about half that (20 watts) in triode strapped mode. I run it exclusively in triode and NEVER get above half volume on my preamp. I like having a little extra oomph available from the amp even if I am only using 10 or so watts at high listening levels, gives me the impression that I have more "headroom", lol!. I am convinced that an amp capable of anything more than this 20-40 watts is wasted on K-horns. warm regards, Tony