Tube questions...

[synthfreek]

In the next several months I plan on getting aboard the tube-wagon but first I have a few questions. I plan on getting some LaScalas this coming year so what I buy should be a match for them BUT I also want to be able to use the amp(s) with my KG4.2s that I currently have. I know some will say "Why not just get the LaScalas first?". I'm still living in an apt(3rd floor) 'til April. But after April I shall be in a "real" house and that's when I plan to upgrade my speakers(actually I'll move my 4.2s to the rear for Home Theater use). One question: Are the preamp outs on the Outlaw 1050 worthy of tube amplification? Question two: How are the Paramours? Question three: What would YOU suggest with an absolute top budget of $600. Any suggestions that are kits should be for a novice solderer(or is that a joke in itself?). Maybe this is trivial but I'd really rather have something that is aesthetically pleasing and NOT look like it came from the guts of an old Silvertone radio console. Suggestions...

[artto]

Why don't you just go with one of the Parasound amps, like the HCA750 or 1000? John Curl of Mark Levinson fame designed them & they should sound just fine. Either can be had new for under $600 & have plenty of power for your needs now & with the LaScalas & operate in class A/AB. Tubes are great, but from the way the rest of your equipment list looks, I'm not so sure how much would be gained by using something like a class A single ended or push-pull triodes on LaScalas in the future with all that other stuff. Remember, the power amps are going to amplify everything that came before it, including noise. Everything is going to be only as good as the weakest link in the chain. I would also dump those Cerwin Vega speakers & get Klipsch all around. They may similiar to Klipsch in that they tend to be one of the more efficient speakers on the market but they are voiced very differently. Likewise, if you really the Vegas, then go with the Vegas all around. Don't mix & match too much with speakers. The individual voicing of dissimilar speakers (even Klipsch) will just make each individual speaker stand out more instead of creating a coherent sound that seemingly makes the speakers disappear.

[synthfreek]

I HATE the Cerwin Vegas and just recently split a Klipsch package that upgrades my surrounds to KG2.2s and my center is now a KV-3. I planned to eventually get the LaScalas up front, the KV-3 as my center , the 4.2s as surrounds & the 2.2s as rear centers. What else in my system sucks besides the Cerwin Vega stuff? I KNOW they suck. I thought I made some pretty wise purchases with the AMC CD8b cd player, Rega P3 w/ Super Elys cart, the Parasound preamp & the 1050. I'm confused why all the other stuff matters when I'd be listening to 2 channels.

[leok]

I would think the sooner you try tubes instead of ss, the sooner you get to understand how terrible most ss amps sound with efficient speakers. In driving efficient speakers, it is the final stages of amplification that are the most problematic. Believe it or not, at moderate listening levels, the signal feeding your speakers has a lower ac voltage than what's comming out of a CD player. The speaker source simply has more current. Low distortion at such low voltages is not what ss amps do best. So, I think going for a tube amp would make a big difference.

The Paramour probably sounds a lot better than my original Heath W5M. Or, you could pick up a used tube amp through ebay .. but that might require the ability to make repairs. What is likely to happen is, once you ear the difference with tubes, you'll start re-thinking the entire system. So maybe you have a good approach to start with: Very good stereo with Paramours and LaScalas. I don't know the efficiency of the KG4.2, but they might not get real loud. In an appartment, maybe loud enough.

leok

[artto]

Heath?.....now come on buddy.....give me a break!

Maybe YOU need hearing-aids!

"the weakest link in the chain determines the strength of the chain"

[Audio Flynn]

ARTO,

Problems with Heath?

On what basis?

Being condescending in the "2 Channel" forum will reinforce your ignorance.

LEOK builds his own amps. Do you?

[Deang]

Man Artto, you just slammed Obi Wan Kenobi.

I bet he's right. It's not hard for me to imagine a Heathkit with tubes sounding better than SS.

Synth, why don't you build a nice two channel system around those future Scalas? Using the 1050 as the preamp probably isn't the best idea.

To be honest, $600 puts you in nice refurbised Scott or Eico territory -- or even a slightly used Jolida. All integrated tube amps -- and would work good with the Scalas.

[mobile homeless]

What are you musical tastes? Listening habits? Volume needs?

Based on your other gear (and Klipsch NAME), it doesnt sound like the Paramours are going to be up your alley really, this depending on your musical taste and output needs (as well as your room size). I would probably go with a better Push Pull offering with all else unknown.

The preamp contributes to a large part of the sonics and while the Outlaw will get the job done, there are other offerings higher up the totem pole. I recommend you going with two separate systems if possible with a full 2 channel rig for music and the SS brigade for the HT side. Your house might not let you do this..but it is generally best to separate the two if at all possible. I find that systems biased toward any HT aspect rarely get the most from music, although many others (ie the mass majority) opt for the ALL IN ONE approach.

Throw out some more info for proper advice. The way it looks, you might be better served by moving on to something besides the Paramour, a great SET amp for the money, however, but still designed to a price point.

kh

[synthfreek]

I have a VERY wide-range in listening habits. Here's a breakdown of everything I listened to today:

Keith Jarrett-The Koln Concert-LP

Bill Nelson(of Be Bop Deluxe fame)-Das Kabinet/La Belle Et La Bete-CD

Steve Roach-Solitaire-CD

Klaus Schulze-X-LP

Michael Viner's Incredible Bongo Band-Bongo Rock-CD

Dennis Coffey-Evolution-LP

The Penguin Cafe Orchestra-Mini Album-LP

Leo Kottke-6 & 12 String Guitar-CD

John Fahey-America-CD

Lustmord-Metavoid-CD

Pete Namlook-Air I&II-CD

Japancakes-Belmondo-CD

I don't expect anyone to be know all of this stuff but a general breakdown would be 60%CD/40%Vinyl. Genres: Electronic music/ambient/techno-50%, Jazz-10-15%, Indie Rock/punk/guitar based stuff-25%, Other misc "stuff"-remaining %. Rarely do I listen to classical. I don't really listen to musch mainstream stuff at all. Solid DEEP bass is very important to me as most of the ambient music has some seriously low HZ(Lustmord down to 5HZ). Volume isn't important now but will be when I move. 2 setups is a no-can-do for now. Would a dedicated but inexpensive preamp really be better than the 1050's preouts?

[mobile homeless]

A very eclectic sampling of music here. I have a similarly varied collection although not the same bias. Perhaps a good 60% of my music is of the Indie label variety this from playing in original/new music bands for a good portion of my life, not to mention the 7 years working in a college radio station (and having an in-home recording studio for mostly indie racket in the 80s). But my 40s, 50s, 60s jazz (50s-60s biased) is right up there with a load of vinyl from this segment (90% of my indie stuff is vinyl as well). The rest is 60s-70s rock, classical, and 150 recordings that really defy genre.

So I know where you are coming from here. Based on what you just told me, I don't see the SET option as the end of your road, even with a dedicated 2 channel system based on the La Scala. In fact, I don't know if the La Scala is the best alternative given your taste in music. It depends on your setup.

I know one thing, I went the high power solid state route and took it to its end. The first upgrade I deemed totally necessary was a tube preamp to run my various SS amps. I thought this a fine compromise at the time. And back then, tube audio was much more expensive to get into - pre-internet, the exposure to all the used options was harder to negotiate and the selection was many times less. I sold my late solid state amp several years ago as it was taking up space on the floor and not being used. Ironically enough, my solid state offerings are still the most expensive amps I have bought, this including my fully loaded Welborne Labs 2A3 monoblocks.

Getting an all-in-on system is going to be tough but I think a push pull tube amp is definitely the ticket. I have loved the EL-34 and EL-84, both with good, yet different, qualities. Amps using the KT-88 are also a good rock option with their more robust bottom end. The least controlled bottom on the whole is the EL-34 but I happen to love this tube with rock.

I think that ultimately, you will opt for a better pre with your 2 channel. In some ways, I like the tube preamp with the Class A biased solid state offering more than a solid state pre and tube amp. It really depends on the gear and choices. $600 for the amps is a tough price point but there are some good used options around that range.

As for now, I would ditch the SET solution.

kh

[mike stehr]

I would agree with the Push Pull idea.

Lascala's won't even think about doin' Lustmord in those bottom scrapin' ranges.

That's pretty much mandatory subwoofer material.

All I know is, it's some deep sh*t!

A good 30, 40 watt Push pull with some hefty solid state on subs would be nice option.

I'm goin' to bed, this Bell Carillon amp pisses me off!

(Rotten cookin' 15k 20w boat resistor.....%*$@!)

[leok]

Things got real busy for a few days, otherwise I would have responded sooner.

artto, I am serious about the Heath in that mine, even in its original state from ebay, which was pretty bad, the fundamental advantage of tube over ss was clear. Most affordable ss amps distort at low levels because the nonlinearities of the small signal transistor amp model (a way of describing in math what the amp will do with a signal) become more significant. Nonlinearity = distortion = harshness, grain, sibilance (actually I think that's exaggerated sibilance). With the triode tube amp, especially without feedback, as the signal becomes smaller, the tube amp becomes more linear. I believe this is why detail and ambience are so much better with tube amps than ss.

I wouldn't recommend the Heath W5M. I've completely rewired mine so that it is more like the Cary Rocket 88 in triode mode using KT66s and no feedback. There are plenty of nice tube amps around that are better than the W5M .. that was my point. Even the W5M sounds better than most affordable ss amps. The Paramour, I'm sure, is far better than the Heath.

Get a few issues of Stereophile mag. Look at the "distortion (%) vs continuous output power" graphs for a few ss and tube designs. Notice what happens below 1W. Usually the ss distortion begins a steep ramp back up as power drops toward 0.1W. With tube amps, if there is feedback the distortion levels off or climbs slowly. With tube amps, without feedback, distortion continues to drop.

If you look at the distortion specs of a tube itself, used in triode mode, distortion approaches 0% as power approaches 0W.

I'm sure there are nice ss amps out there. The Halcro dm58 for example, but that's not cheap. Still, Stereophile Vol 25 # 10, Oct 2002 has, on page 145, lower left, exactly the graph I'm refering to. 0.015% distortion at 0.1W is nice, but look at the trend of that graph. Even the Halcro is on its way to trouble. Unfortunately, the Air Tight SET reviewed in the same issue is not a real good example of how to use tubes to minimize low power distortion.

Reviewing synthfreek's later posts on this thread, I still think the Paramours and LaScala would be a nice change from ss.

leok

[leok]

Stereophile Vol 25 # 10, Oct 2002 has, on page 145, lower RIGHT, exactly the graph ..

not lower left.

leok

[synthfreek]

I've done a little bit o' reasearching and I've seen good things written about the Norh SE9 and several Jolida models. After thinking about this for a bit I like the idea of an integrated preamp/amp with just a simple 2 input design. One for my CD and one for my phono preamp so I'm looking into this route as well. What's up with the Scott 299A? Might be a good medium for my needs huh? Thanks to all of you guys. I'm trying to soad in as much as possible. One last thing. Is it pretty frowned upon to use a sub in conjunction to your mains? And how would I utilize that with a 2 input setup? Could I use the analog outs on my cd to the pre ins and the coax out to my 1050 to use its sub out to feed my sub? That still wouldn't get sub output for my Rega. Is there another way?

[leok]

I have a sub, but tend not to use it because it usually muddies the low end. However, I do miss the few, but important low freq. events that neither the RF-7s nor Forte-IIs will reach. I have had most success if I split, or daisy-chain the line feed (from passive or active preamp) to the main and sub amps (don't use the sub's high pass back to the main amp) and adjust the sub cutoff so it doesn't overlap with the mains. This way I don't mess with the audio before it gets to the main amps.

Probably, when I get orchestral string sections to sound reasonable I'll tackle that 16Hz to 40Hz missing piece. I do miss the low C 32' pipes in the St Saens Organ Symphony.

leok

[mike stehr]

Synth,

When I had my Chorus II's, I had my pair of SVS 16/46 CS series parked next to them.

Tube on Klipsch, SS on SVS.

Although I agree it does muddy up some recordings, and some recordings don't really need the subs.

But some do, it depends on the material.

Let 'em frown!

[selfwilly]

as was mentioned earlier addressing speaker mixing, i stongly suggest second that posters advice. i even found that useing a rc3 center with a pair of cornwalls to be a bad timbral match. i switched to a heresy and was back in heaven!!