Tuning the imaging of Cornwalls

[kjohnsonhp]

Where would you put a pair of Cornwalls and the sweet spot sitting location in a room 15' wide by 20' long? Any suggestions for me to try in placement? I think I have the placement pretty good with a phantom center of lead voclas and left and right stereo sounds.

I'm experimenting with location and trying to better understand the comments I read about speaker imaging (dept of soundstage, etc.) It's easy to get out of the sweet spot and hear two distinct channels...one coming out of each speaker and a sensation that the sound is left of center. I'm not only trying get the phantom center but also let the sound appear separate from the speakers as a sonic image in front of me.

I'm currently sitting about 10' from the front plane of the speakers. I have one speaker in each corner facing me 8' apart (edge-to-edge) and pulled out from the corner about 2.5'. My perception is that by moving back I get a slightly more integrated image--waves grow and mix.

I've been comparing the Cornwalls to Sonus Faber Grand Pianos tuned in my RPTV dealer's show room. The person I bought the RPTV from has reconed and rewired Cornwalls in one room and Sonus Fabers in another. He perceives the imaging of these modern imports to be much better. The sound is certainly different so I'm trying to internalize the differences and think how I would describe them. I reference Sonus but I assume B&W, KEF, Vienna, and many other high dollar nonhorn speakers would provide a similar contrast to the Cornwalls.

One person described the difference like this: "The Klipsh are strong in dynamics and punchiness. The Sonus Fabers are too laidback or not as fast & crisp on material with strong dynamic content." I guess that is what I sensed when listening to Rush 2112 on both. Dynamics seem to be why I like the Corns so much for movies. On the other hand the Sonus seem to be sweeter or more pleasant especially at higher volumes of loud passages. I think this will be addressed on the Cornwalls with my tube amp that is finally done and heading home. As for imaging, I'm still learning and testing.

I'm currently using theh Outlaw 1050 where I think I'm hearing the SOnus on a Denon 4802. I can't wait to get the Dynaco ST70 with new matching quad of output tubes and all new signal caps back from my restoration friend.

[IndyKlipschFan]

Along the wide wall.. Your sweet spot in the center... Enjoy!!

[mobile homeless]

Despite the recs by PWK on long wall placement, I personally think the Cornwalls would be the BEST on the short wall (since it's a good 15feet wide), away from room bounderies for the best imaging although it will never equal the imaging of a small mini monitor placed out into the room. IF you do place on the long wall, you dont need to go 20feet wide, which to me is TOO wide apart to fill in the center stage properly.

Having a wide baffle makes pinpoint imaging a bit more tough. But to get the best imaging, I believe it's necessary to bring the speakers OUT from the wall, both side and behind the speakers. The more you are out from the wall, the more you will have a depth of soundstage. Many dont find this important but I do. Unfortunately, it's not too easy to move these beasts out.

Having this for HT makes it a little less imperative since some of these qualities arent as important.

kh

[Colin]

It seems that many people, including tweaking audiophiles, are not concerned with trying to replicate the live music experience in the living room. At least not to the extent that one could close ones eyes and possibly think the performer is actually there, live in the living room. Instead, for these others, all sorts of other factors are just as important as creating a sonic holograph. Yet, for me, this is the critical test of a music reproduction system. Just how close can it come to the real thing? The sad fact is that even the few truly superb dream systems, that I have heard, can reproduce only a limited number of instruments and vocalists well enough to perpetuate the they are here illusion. Stick to one or two vocalists and few instruments, and Nearfield Pipedreams, Martin-Logan Statements and Avant-garde horns can come awfully close to faking the real thing. But, add a large group to the playback, and the brief illusion vanishes.

The good news is that with just a few vocalists or instruments, even mediocre systems, when properly positioned, can offer up a very competent illusion of the real thing. The key, as expounded by George Cardas, of cable making fame, is to get the loudspeakers away from the walls (Setting Up Loudspeakers In A Rectangular Room by George Cardas, http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0602/cardas.html). This has to be done accurately, within the half inch. With horns, the next step is to sit some 120 to 150% away, as measured by the distance between the two loudspeakers. The horns should be equidistant and aimed directly at your ears or precisely at the back of your head.

I prefer the short wall myself, but then I do not have a room where the long wall is readily available. Even when I did, the key was to accurately place the loudspeakers and sit an exact distance away. For 1 wide loudspeakers in a 15 wide room, for example, this mean placing them about 3 to 4 from each side and front wall, leaving about 4 between each speaker. That means sitting about 5' to 8' away from the front of the loudspeakers (or about 8' to 12' into the room).

Then check the electrical phase with a Test CD. The phase will make sure that each channel is in-sync with the other. Once in sync and properly set-up, the distance from the front wall (which you are facing) will determine the depth of your illusory soundstage. The distance from the side walls will determine not only the width of your sonic holograph, but also the timbre of your mid to upper bass ranges and some of the mid-range as well. Once properly set-up, adjust the distances to the side walls to suit your taste.

In my mind, once a system and listening room is properly positioned, with lights out and feet up and cold beverage in hand, the role of the modest home stereo is transported onto a higher realm. It is no longer the mere reproducer of all sounds recorded on disc or tape. It is now something more. It is the engine driving the sonic holograph deck on Starship Home Enterprise. It is the magical transporter which instantly brings Diana Krall, k.d. lang, Sarah McLachlin, Tracy Chapman and many others right into my listening room.

[Colin]

oops, double post

(does it bear repeating, should I say it again?)

[lynnm]

(does it bear repeating, should I say it again?)

Errrr Uhmmmm - No!

Just Kidding - Couldn't Pass On a Freebie !

[Terry N. Cruse]

Yep, I agree. CWs from 1972-2002.Tried every placement. Long wall application is best. If the sweet spot is not there.....try two Heresy center channels for that "curtain of sound."

[cornwaller]

Colin,

Great post. I'm trying to intergrate the placement that PWK wanted for the cornwalls with your formula...maybe there is a happy medium or hybrid to be had from both--he wanted them at least 12 feet apart angled as you said and on the short of the room in the corners.

Cornwaller

[Allan Songer]

I listen to mono about 60% of the time so "imaging" doesn't matter AT ALL to me most of the time. What I've always tired to shoot for in this hi-fi hobby is to put together a system that makes a piano sound like a piano, a tenor sax sound like a tenor sax. My current system does this as well as any I've owned and better than most I hear.

My Cornwalls are along the short wall about 15" from the wall and about 8 or 9 feet apart, slightly toed in. I get plenty of "imaging" and "soundstaging" when listening to Stereo. I've pulled the Conwalls out from the wall a few times and the low-end tends to receed into the background and the upper-mids become more pronounced--just slightly.

Plus, who the heck wants two Cornwalls in the the middle of the damn room?

Not me!

[Audible Nectar]

I would go with the long wall. My Corns worked very well on the long wall, but I've moved them to the short wall since my 5 channel HT configuration works best for me that way (plus the speakers are away from the heating ducts in the HT configuration). Short wall still works good, but the long wall was a bit better.

[kjohnsonhp]

Here's what I have so far (see attached).

2' from side walls, 2.5' from back wall, speakers facing listener.

I will try moving them 3' from each wall. Does anyone recommend facing the speakers parallel with the back wall instead of in the corners facing the listener?

The current setup sounds much better than when I had them back in the corners.

My next step is to get my 2-channel Dynaco amp & pre-amp hooked up for 2-channel instead of using the Outlaw and my old Hitach for the phone pre-amp.

For HT I'm replacing the C7 with an Academy.

Any suggestions for next steps? I've been evolving the system as part of the learning process. I assume I'll want to get one of Kelly's pre-amp & TT recommendations eventually.

[mobile homeless]

Interesting shot. My first reaction here it do suggest you move your listening chair BACK and with less toe in of the speakers since your listening position is moved back. In my view, you are too close to the Cornwalls especially with them this wide apart. I do like near field listening with a monitor setup but it seems the Cornwalls are better suited for a bit more distance. How far back are you from the speakers? Perhaps the listening chair seems closer than it really is. Remember that more toe in does increase the image specifics in this case but ALSO has a tendency to increase brightness as well. If the speakers are 8 feet apart, I would be a bit over 8ft or more away. You need to experiment here and find the best spot. As Colin said, exact positioning of the speakers is critical. I actually use tape on the floor to mark the best spots for certain speakers or if honing in on setup (measure toe in and distances from corners to walls etc). You really want the speaker as wide apart as you can without losing the center fill (I generally seem to settle for 6.5-8ft wide more often than not). I almost always prefer toe in to firing straight ahead as doing the latter reduces proper imaging precision.

Although I have mentioned this many times, if really into the music side of the spectrum, try at any cost to avoid the monitor/set in between the speakers. The difference here can be HUGE. Removing large objects between the speakers does amazing things for the imaging /soundstage.

It also goes without saying that the better the gear, the more this information and the specifics become important although any equipment benefits from proper setup.

EDIT: I actually think that if that setup currently works for you, than keep it. It really is a nearfield type setup which many do prefer and is actually closer to my setup with SET amps than not although my Cornwalls are now 7 feet apart at the INSIDE CORNER with my listening position a tad over 8 feet away.

kh

[kjohnsonhp]

First, thanks for all the great comments.

The photo has the Cornwalls 7' apart (inside edge to edge).

The chair puts my face about 9 1/2' from the face of each speaker.

I have room to move the chair back up to four feet.

The photo is an improvement over my previous setup which had the monitor/rack/right speaker shifted to the right so I could fully open my closet door (when I built the room I was planning for a drop down screen and projector and wired it for that purpose).

I think moving to a Plasma or my original plan of using a drop down screen would solve two problems. 1) it would allow easier access to the closet; and 2) it would remove the monitor for music. My HT rack would move to the rear closer to the projector and I would have dedicated 2-channel up front. This, however, is a few years away (the RPTV would go downstairs in the family room).

The room is above the garage and best for HT and music because the volume doesn't impact the rest of the house. It also contains my PC which is when I listen to a lot of music (although not in the sweet spot--I used to use Sennheiser headphones).

[kjohnsonhp]

Here's an update and some observations. I've clearly got a lot to learn about my tastes and audio in general but here goes.

You can see my system picture in the HT board from today.

I now have my Cornwalls almost 6' apart (inside corner to corner) and almost 3' from the rear and side walls. I sit 9' back.

Current observations using 2-channel CD playback on sub $200 Toshiba DVD player.

1. the imaging seems excellent

- very well integrated soundstage

- clear phantom center sound (I have to put my ear on the center to make sure it's not on.

2. There seems to be a stronger presence of the higher frequencies...the cymbols are very distinct and the "tat,tat,tat" is more dominant. I can clearly hear all the little triangles and other sounds. I wonder if the treble is a bit too strong.

For CD playback I want to go hear a more neutral sounding speaker and compare the difference...I don't think I've done enough listening outside of my system to really know for sure which sound I like better...the famous big Klispch sound or a more neutral speaker.

Records sound notably different. The treble isn't as dominant and distinct and the CD dynamics are obviously missing.

I think one of the problems of getting to know the sound of my system is that I get used to vinyl and then CDs sound like a big change. I also find my records vary in recording quality and I think I need a fresh cartridge if not a new TT system and pre-amp w/phono. I have a weak link with my old receiver supplying the phono stage through a "tape out" plug on the Outlaw.

I'll be hooking up my old PAS3 tube pramp to the ST70 and trying an all tube/vinyl solution instead of my current hybrid with the ST70 connected to the Outlaw.

Once I get my vinyl solution updated I'll be doing testing with the same album recorded on both LP and CD. I seem to have several albums in both formats...some on half speed master lps.