Old school or New school? Does it matter?

[heresy2guy]

We've all heard the debate over the Heritage VS Reference systems, the old VS the new, etc... I know the PWK designed the Heitage line and therefore the unique sound but I also noticed that all the Heritage models used three-way systems. Who's responsible for the newer Reference series, and why did they go to a two-way system? I was under the impression that three-way systems give better sound and I must assume that PWK thought so too, other wise the Khorns, La Scalas, Cornwalls and Heresys would be two-way systems, yes? I don't know if you can boil it down to this, but if PWK didn't think a three-way system produced better sound then a two-way system then he wouldn't have used it in the Heritage line, right? I guess someone in Klipsch (other then PWK obviously) came to the conclusion that two-way systems were the way to go for the Reference series. There must be a reason. Better sound? Cheaper to manufacture? An attempt to be more main-stream? Perhaps they just wanted a change? I'm grasping at straws here - lol.

[Dale W]

Both 2 and 3 way work well, as for pwk thinking olny 3 way how about the jubilee project ? He spearheaded that project and it's a two way set up.

[Colin]

If it was not for the problems that crossovers introduce to the sound, five-way speaker systems would sound the best; one driver for each area of the audible range. A system like that could have two tweeters and two woofers with one driver for the entire vocal range. At the other extreme, if was not for the enormous size required, single drivers capable of the entire frequency range would be ideal. This is why you see people build entire rooms to act as the loudspeaker. In fact, the single drivers loudspeakers which I have seriously auditioned in the same room with the same equipment are remarkably musical compared to the wider frequency response of line driver arrays

[heresy2guy]

Isn't the one, full-frequency driver something that Bose praises about their systems and still use to this day? Oh no! I said the "B" word! LOL. As fot the Jubilee project, I don't have anything to say since I know nothing about it - sorry.

[mobile homeless]

Good last point, Mark. Although some compromises are better than others. heh...

[Dale W]

HERESY2GUY: The jubilee is suppose to be the next generation k-horn.

Go down to odds and mods, at the bottom left corner click on show topics for last 180 days, then go to the second page . the topic heading is "uh speaking of jubilee" by pgh in there you'll find pictures and talk about the jubilee.

Just want to keep you in the klipsch loop, so in the future you'll be aware of what some here may be talking about.

[HornEd]

This issue smacks of the tonic mdeneen poured on another thread... in essence, the attempt to capture the full performance in a format that MUST transform what's captured non-literally and then expell it into the air through a mechanism unlike that which created the original sound... is unlikely to match the original performance whatever we may do. Whether you take your compromise in the horn... or in the crossover... or in the nether regions... compromise is the essential ingredient of EVERY audio system. So, what we are really taliking about on this Forum is not "pure"... it is not "live"... it is merely an answer to the basic question of, "How do you like your compromise?" =HornEd

PS: It seems PWK's search for the "Holy Wail" could only be found in an uncompromised, crossoverless, (probably metaphysical) horn... wouldn't it be ironic if that Horn turned out to be Gabriel's?

[Deang]

I like wicked phase shifting and high amounts of 2nd order distortion.

Sounds pretty good to me.

[Deang]

Gabe's horn won't be heard through a speaker system.

No, the true irony would be if his horn is a trombone, or worse yet -- a tuba.

[horonzak]

Youve got to put that in proper perspective back then a mid/high driver barely made it to 10K. In reading some of his early letters. AT this time HIGH AUDIO did not exist. AMPEX tape recorders barely made it to 15K. (at 15 i.p.s.) bandwith of mics were limited at top end . Lighter & more durable diaphrams were just coming into being. Now mid/high drivers with newer alloys can easily make it to 18K/2OK. It was alot tougher back then to keep voice coils cooler & not burn up .(WE STILL DO THAT TODAY) some ones gotta push the envelope.

[heresy2guy]

Thanks for the link Dale. From what I see, there seems to be a lot of speculation concerning the jubilee - 2 way or 3 way (home or pro useage depending), wood horn or metal, aluminum or titanium drivers, varied crossover frequencies etc., and last but not least, 2 very different pictures of the system with the black 3-way picture having what appears to be a midrange horn so big you could crawl into it. LOL. Regardless of the discussions listed above however, it's aniticipated price seems akin to a new Honda Civic, so that certainly leaves me out of the picture and therefore makes all the talk kinda academic. But it sure is fun! On further thought, I wonder if this "new" klipsch product, Jubilee or not, will have that "heritage" sound to it? I doubt if any fan of the Heritage or Classic lineup could think of another reasonably priced speaker they'd rather own than a set of Khorns. It's one thing (and still hard to do at that) to pitch the 2k to 5k required for a set of used or new Khorns and quite another for the 17k or so for the Jubilee. So the question contiues - 2 or 3 way systems? Does the fact that the Reference series utilizes 2 way designs help to make it sound different then the 3 way heritage / classic series?

[heresy2guy]

Ok guys. Now I'm doing my homework here and looking at the specs for the Klipsch commercial products and one unit captured my attention because it looks like my Heresys, the KP-250. It's sensitivity is an amazing 102db which is much higer then the 97 listed for the Heresy IIs. How'd this happen - by cutting two holes and thus porting the cabinet? I mean, 102dBs with one watt at one meter is approaching la scala, belle, & Khorn efficiency. Throw a 12" sub in with a set of KP-250s and you should have quite a set-up, right? Wow - I get derailed easily...sorry! lol

[mobile homeless]

How did that happen??? Just like ALL the modern speakers from Klipsch: BECAUSE THEY SAID SO. Most people outside the Klipsch realm are pretty damn skeptical about the latest Klipsch sensitivity ratings. Those within say all is legit. Who knows. It's a head scratcher for the non-worshippers.

kh

[sunnysal]

I really don't think there is any doubt in what is the correct PWK home jubilee configuration. it is a two-way design. the unfortunate name of the pro theatre speaker is merely coincidence. There have been photos and articles already published about the design of the "new" juiblee, the followup to PWKs k-horn, and it is/will be a two-way. all the confusion is among some b-boarders. regards, tony

[Deang]

This topic has been absolutely kicked to death over the last two years.

Incidently, there is a 'pro' version of the Jubilee that has been out for some time. It's the black cab. with the horn you can crawl into.

PK had no illusions that a 2-way would be better than a three-way, if he could get the tweeter to play low enough without giving up HF extension. This is in fact what he worked on the better part of the last 20 years.

Now, as far as "normal" drivers/speakers go, I have, with the exception of two or three designs -- always preferred the sound of two-ways. The response is smoother, and they are also usually more coherent.

When you get into horns, things get more complex. The question then becomes: Do you want your midrange reproduced by a horn or a cone? This is what separates Heritage from Reference. With Heritage, the midrange is produced by a horn. With Reference, it's reproduced by cones. There is no question that a midrange being reproduced by a horn has a very distinct quality all it's own, and that a cone sounds like, well -- a cone (more on that in a minute).

Mark (mdeneen) pointed out once that by the time you get to 2000Hz, the midrange is finished. He then said something to the effect that the only thing the Reference horns are doing is adding volume to the sizzle. Tom Brennen refers to them as "Klipschettes", and says he loves the "dime sized cymbals". These comments come from people who listen to SERIOUS horns.

I thought Mark was full of poop, so I went and dug up a musical instrument chart that showed the relationship between the various instruments and what part of the frequency spectrum they inhabit. I found out that he was right. 2K is it. After 2K, there is no midrange. So, we are left with two questions: 1) What in the hell is the Reference driver/horn really doing, and 2) How can they sound so good?

First of all, Reference are two-ways, and so benefit from the advantages afforded them by simplicity. There is simply not as much that can be screwed up with a two-way. It's easier to smooth out the response, and you don't usually get the sense that you are listening to a bunch of drivers making music. They are typically not "peaky", and for the most part -- image better than three-ways.

With Reference, you get some of the best from what both cones and horns offer. There is certainly an overlapping in frequencies, where both the tweeter/horn and cones are playing the same stuff, but I think primarily -- the best way to think about Reference is a speaker where the fundamental tones are played by the cones, and the majority of the harmonic information is carried by the tweeter/horn. There is a balancing act going on here -- and I think Klipsch nailed it.

Also, the cones are not these heavy, overdamped polypro cones -- or semi-thin paper, that tends to break up under the first sign of stress. The Reference cones are very cool, and I for the most part don't give a hoot what anyone says or thinks about them. Just freaking listen to them. It doesn't matter if I'm at 85db or 110db -- the RF-7's maintain their sonic integrity.

I enjoyed the Heresies -- they sounded excellent. However, they were NOT in the same class as the RF-7's. Now, a Cornwall, Scala, or K-horn might, or would move past them -- but there will be a cost. There is no gain -- without loss.

There is no "better". It is simply different ways of doing the same thing, trading some things for others -- and each design should be taken and evaluated on it's own merit. It's always comes down to subjectivity: What do you like?

We've said it many times here before: If it's Klipsch, it's got to be good.

[lhtf]

Hersey2guy,

You talked about the black Jubilee 3-way. That is the Theater version of the Jubilee. I also read someone saying that PWK used 3-way speakers. The latest versions are 3-way, but the first Khorns from the late 40's and early 50's were actually 2-way speakers.

Now about the KP-250II. Yes, it looks like a Hersey with holes cut in it, but it has a woofer that can handle 250W compared to 100W in the Hersey. The reason it has a higher sensitivity than a Hersey is that the woofer is higher in sensitivity than that of the Hersey 12" woofer.

I hope I helped.

[rowooo]

Simply stated.........it's much easier to make a good two-way speaker than it is to make a 3-way speaker. I've had a friends Heresys in my system on two different occasions and my 2-way Epics just sounded much better to me in all areas. Much smoother, better detailed lower frequencies, better imaging, you name it. Now I realize my results are based on my Solid State system and my personal tastes so I'm not bashing 3-ways just pointed out that a good two-way speaker has numerous benefits. With my system the Heresys equaled 3 excedrin and a hot towel on my forehead.

[WMcD]

To my ear, a speaker with full range horn loading is the best. But they are large and expensive. It must be just a hard business decision to compromise the design with a direct radiator. About all you can do is make sure it is horn loaded as low as possible in frequency. To do that, any manufacturer has to keep an eye on what parts are available, with decent QC, and how much they cost.

But, let's look at the Heresy and Cornwall. The midranges would get down to about 700 Hz and up to about 6000 Hz. Then the K-77 goes up to 15000 Hz. That is pretty respectable. There were then no single horn-driver combination which would do that at the price. It is probably correct that some drivers on the K-400 could go 400 Hz to 15,000 Hz. PWK reported as much. I suspect that QC and costs made that unworkable. Also, it may have looked good on the measuring machine and sounded poor. It must have relied on a lot of beaming of high frequencies.

The two way top ends can't be considered inexpensive. You look at the cast horns and compression drivers and you know there is a lot of cost. Also, the drivers were purchased from EV and Atlas. There was reliance on an outside source.

The Chorus, Forte, Quartet line was the next step in the non horn loaded bass systems. The horns are plastic. The midrange driver has a smaller diaphragm than the Heritage. None the less, they sounded very good. Still a three way with horn loading down to about 700 Hz. I suspect that Klipsch engineers designed the systems and subed out manufacturing of the horns. The later versions had the tratrix horn midrange which were, I believe, a great breakthrough. But again, a three way is more expensive than a two way.

The Reference is a two way. The treble horn goes down to about 2000 Hz. This is a fairly great compromise in the range of horn loading. On the plus side, the pattern of the horn loaded treble can be tightly controlled. This is one of the other compromises. If you want constant coverage, the horn must be large. Also, a driver working 2000 to 15000 Hz is pushing what can be done at reasonable cost. Yeah, there is some balancing being done with the crossover. It is a wonder the boys in engineering got them to work so magnificently. That is a respectable bandwidth for a single horn system.

I don't think the Reference are bad speakers at all. You just have to recognize the many tradeoffs of cost, frequency range, and size. Also, the market seems to always like a new design. There are some people who will pay more money for an older design. But there the others with green money, perhaps less of it, who need an entry level system, or new variations.

Gil

[horonzak]

Just disconnect the K77 & let the K55/401 run full out & you'l have a 1950's style Khorn it'l sound like a horn with out eyebrows. PAUL said in his letters when the recordings got better he would have to reproduce those upper harmonics that give each instrument its distinked character. Why run a big AMPEX at 15 i.p.s Lets run it at 3&3/4 & save tape & stop at the music fundamental of 3K. MID HORN needed help &he new it. the drivers were not that good back then. Ive got a basement full of them I use as door stops.

[TBrennan]

Dean summed it up well; it's not whether you want 2-way or 3-way but do you want to hear your midrange from a horn or a cone? A 2-way Altec that is totally horn-loaded is going to have much more in common with a 3-way Klipsch Heritage than with a 2-way Klipsch RF.

Here's what ole' PWK had to deal with. He was committed to his folded corner horn but was faced with the fact that the response of the basshorn was rolled-off at 400hz. This meant he couldn't do a 2-way at his price range because the 1" aluminum diaphragm "high performence" compression drivers which have excellent highs can only be used down to 500hz and many work best when used only down to 800hz.

So to reach down to 400hz PWK was forced to use 1" phenolic diaphragm compression drivers, many such drivers are reliable working down to 400hz. But such drivers have no highs, this means a tweeter was needed. So the need to use the basshorn FORCED the use of a 3-way format.

Now perhaps PWK could have used a large format aluminum driver like the Altec 288 or JBL 375 in a 2-way from 400hz up but such drivers were VERY expensive, far more expensive than the phenolic mid drivers and EV tweeters he used, and evidently didn't meet in priceing needs.

What's funny about the Jubilee is that PWK finally designed a folded basshorn that responded high enough to allow the use of metal diaphragmed 1" drivers and thus make a 2-way. So what do they do? They use a large format 2" throat BMC driver that probably would have worked down to 400hz on the old cornerhorn anyway. Go figure.