Newb question here

[kippyieh]

What exactly is timbre? Why does it matter across the fronts and not necessarily all the speakers?

Thanks for indulging me.

[HornEd]

Well, kippyieh, you hit paydirt, pard! Some time ago I got an email from Phil O who asked, "Can you tell me everything you know about timbre matching?" He liked it well enough that I posted it on this Forum. Here it is again for your benefit...

Wow, everything I know about timbre matching... Probably not at this point in the aging process. But I can include some off-the-cuff comments (even though I am wearing a Klipsch polo shirt).

Every speaker has its own timbre profile, that is to say that it processes sound in a particular way. Even two exact speakers will have subtle timbre differences beyond those that occur from a difference in positioning. The proximity from reflecting surfaces also makes a difference... just do an A/B test with the same speaker close to the floor and then raised several feet from the floor and you can get an idea how its "voice" changes.

Since "timbre matching" is an attempt to make the "voice" of each speaker sound as much the same as possible... and since so many factors conspire to make the signature "voice" of any given speaker, the potential to find different pathways to the same "voice" can be amazingly complex from a loudspeaker engineering and specific listening room acoustics perspective.

Generally speaking, using six identical monopole speakers in a 6.1 format provides a simplistic approach to timbre matching... and that is what I did for my Home Theater using KLF-30 "Legends" in each spot. Obviusly, the center channel had to be modified so that the speaker array was horizontally oriented to properly anchor the sound to the screen. From a timber matching perspective, rotating the speaker and raising above the 65" RPHD screen created the greatest timber shift among the six speakers.

By "timbre shift" I mean a change in the sound character as the same sound moves from speaker to speaker in a movie's sound pan. Badly timbre matched speakers make what should be a constant sound shift like the Doppler effect that can be heard when a freight train passes while you are standing at a given point tangential to the tracks.

While there is some lattitude to engineer and/or position smaller speakers so that they more closely approach the timber match of the mains (generally those to the left and right of the screen in an HT system). Realistically, the diminshed size of most center and surround speakers forces them below the acceptability line when it comes to timbre matching qualities.

And, of course, speakers that are designed to throw multiple sonic images around the room to deny the ears ability to make critical timbre matching judgements (such as WDST speakers and even more so in units that have no speakers facing the sweet spot... and much more so in dual broad range speakers that are out-of-phase). All of these techniques are engineered to increase one's sense of ambient sound at the expense of the realism that timbre matching can bring.

Remember, at best, digital sound is an illusionary series of air pressure fluctuations that strike your ear drums and body to create a "sound" in your mind. That realization is a strong argument for letting your "ears" be the judge as to what speakers you like in your listening area... realizing that all the stuff on the input side, from electronics to wire construction, can make a differnce.

Many audiophile grade speakers are not engineered to provide the closest possible match to the original sound in nature... but rather are built to create the sound that their consumer target is likely to buy. A good example of this is the success of Bose (although admittedly not a high end speaker) to become the most profitable speaker manufacturer in the world. Bose success is an example of manufacturing what people think they should be hearing by advertising and clever demo set-ups rather than using better quality audio components with the size that it takes to build audio accuracy. The arrangement of Bose cubes is designed to kill timbre matching potential rather than to enhance it.

Since location is a distinct part of the "voice" of any speaker and location is determined by sounds roughly over about 80Hz for a period of time (a fraction of a second) before almost the same sound can be heard from a different direction (as in the original sound being reflected from a surface in the listening area)... then one perceives the original sound as coming from a certain direction with all of its unique qualities as a speaker in a certain location. Ambient sound creates the notion that you are surrounded or, perhaps, engulfed by the sound all around you... and this effect can be created by broadcasting the same sound in a wide dispersion pattern so that your ears report to your brain than the sounds from many directions are too close to be considered other than one overwhelming sound all around you.

Most of the current "Home Theater" packages feature a subwoofer for the lows and larger speakers in the conventional stereo positions... a somewhat downsized center speaker to more easily fit atop a TV... and smallish sattelite speaker to provide the surround effect. This configuration is a throwback to the ProLogic era when the surround channel was really a narrow spectrum of auditory clues (considerably over 80Hz) that would fool your ear into associating the direction of the auditory clues with some of the sounds coming from your primary speakers.

A good example of this phenomenon can be experienced by having an excellent subwoofer that only puts out sounds below the range that the human ear can detect for location purposes (generally accepted as below about 80Hz but that depends upon the individual ear... and sadly, for me, its age and "sound milage!") If you then have six closely timbre matched speakers arranged in a 6.1 configuration, your brain will tell you that the low sound you hear is coming from the speaker that is playing the above 80Hz sounds naturally associated with the low sound.

What I am trying to say is that you will hear the rumble of a tank in the back of the room even if your subwoofers are in the front of the room... providing that the attendant over 80Hz sounds of tank rumblings are coming from a rear effects speaker! An even more dramatic example is a jet fly over that comes from the back to the front of the room... the deep throated jet roar will seem to migrate from the back to the front... even though all the really deep sounds are coming from the subwoofer that may be positioned (for the sake of illustration) in the middle of the room.

Remember, that much of the really bottom scraping bass that one can perceive comes as a change of room pressure on your skin surfaces and is especially effective on your chest cavity... and may below the range that your ears can perceive sound.

An additional to the issue of timbre matching question is the placement of speakers and their dispersion angles. Generally the angle of dispersion of a single cone or horn speaker needs some distance between it and the listener to cover a broad range of the room. That means that the sweet spot will be an area inside the direct radiating scope of the six main speaker positions. This combination along with a DVD engineered to get the best out of six timbre matched speakers will, IMHO, the finest audio experience. For it allows directional sound to be fully directional and, by having the same sound broadcast from every direction (balanced for where the source, if any, is to be) for virtually any level of ambient sound. Again, the more ambient sound the less directionality... the less directionality the less timbre is a factor... and the less "live" the sound becomes, IMHO.

Of course, putting identical speakers firing in different directions covers the room in shorter distances and makes the speaker system less dependant on room acoustics to recreate the original sound. But, of course, the original sound is not likely to be the one now replecated by a barrage of speakers aimed everywhere. However it is cheaper to make and market little ambient jewels than it is to build big mouth monopoles that speak more truth.

The often ridiculed sound altering electronics that make a room sound more like a huge stadium, or an intimate jazz club, or a cavernous cathedral are related to this issue of how much of what kind of sound is broadcast from which set of speakers. While such overt tricks being played on one's ears brings out the hostility in some... those same kind of tricks are played by most speaker manufacturers in their attempt to capture market share. And, let's face it, if they don't capture sufficient market share they will cease to exist in a competative economy... whatever the purest audio engineering points may be.

When Paul W. Klipsch heard Bell Labs "three channel stereo" long after he designed the first Klipschorn, he was enthralled with its "real life" rendition of concerthall sound. While, ideally he would probably have preferred three Klipschorns... his practical notions... and the aethetic sensibilities of his wife of that era... forced him to think of a whole series of speakers that first brought the LaScala as a cornerless Klipschorn... and, finally, the more difficult to build wife pleaser that was named Belle after his wife. Listening to a properly set up pair of Klipschorns with a Belle in the middle is an excellent example of timbre matching of somewhat dissimilar speaker designs orchestrated into a supurb listening experience... particularly for concert hall material where one's perspective is usually that of being in the audience.

In an HT environment, the challenge is to place the listener in a sweet spot and be able to hit him with the same sounding explosion or machine gun that seems to come, by design, from any particualr place in the room... or maybe right under his chair... or above his head! With full spectrum sound in all five or six non subwoofer channels available on modern DVD's, sound engineers are able to create more full scale reality than ever before... and that is where I believe we are headed as audio consumers as audio engineers increase their skill sets when making movies. What's slowing the process down... just the knowledge, experience and pocket money it takes to put together a really great, timbre matched sound experience.

Oh, yes, and the decline in popularity of the "Bose Bourgeois" as the epitomy of good sound which by their mishapen notion means itsy bitsy, teenie weenie, polkadot sized bikini speakers.

Thanks for the question, PHIL O, I might just put your answer on the forum since it raises an issue that people frequently right me about and I have less time these days to respond. -HornED

PS: Well, Kippy, I hope that gives you something to kieh about!

[michael hurd]

Timbre is the "voice" of the speaker. In home theater over 75 % of the dialogue comes through the center channel, often panning left or right with the action on the screen. Timbre matching the front three speakers is very important, as well as level matching so that when a person walks across the screen talking in a movie, it doesn't sound like he/ she had gone from soprano to falsetto, well, you get the picture.

[Juba310]

longest. reply. ever.

[michael hurd]

Wow, horm ed, you shoehorned that in just ahead of my more simplistic answer.

[lancestorm]

...and Horn Ed didn't even have to retype that! Whew, thanks for all that information!

Horn Ed, I was thinking of purchasing my first pair of Klipsch Reference Series (two RF-3II's and a RC-3II). Should I reconsider, spend an extra $100 or so and get three RF-3II's instead?! If so, where the heck do I place that center speaker? Sideway's under my tv? haha.

[Gordon Groff]

If so, where the heck do I place that center speaker? Sideway's under my tv? haha.

Don't laugh, lancestorm! Wait'l you see HornEd's reply!

Gordon

Looking for a router.

[HornEd]

Once you make the RF3 II horizontal... placing it above or below (angled up) the TV is less of a problem. I am a little short for time but I have explained how to do it several times in the last month with KLF's and other speakers. RF3 II's are even easier than KLF-30's to modify because they are smaller and two-way.

It is really quite simple. Remove the speakers and mark the wires with coded masking tape (they are usually color coded anyway). Reach through the speaker holes and firmly tap up on the motorboard (the board that holds the speakers which audio eng. call motors for moving air). I use a "Dead Head" low rebound rubber mallet available at Home Depot. The motorboard is held to the cabinet with a narrow bead of Liquid Nails. All the wires will be long enough to connect the speakers in their new locations.

MDF (like that used to make your RF3 II motorboard) is available from Home Depot or Lowes for less than $20 per 4' x 8' sheet. Cut out a piece to match the size of the original motorboard. Use the old motorboard as a template to mark the horn opening exactly in the center of the new board. Now, using the old motorboard as a template, mark the woofer holes on either side of the horn hole. Next use a router to make the edge just as it is in the old motorboard. Use a good dust mask because MDF sawdust is mighty tiny... and there is a whole lot of it!

You can buy the plastic grille holders from 1-800-KLIPSCH... but I prefer to drill holes for the male end to fit in loosely and then use industrial strength Velcro to hold the grilles to the speaker. BTW, the upgrade is completely reversible by buying a new factory motorboard in case you have messed up the original in tapping it out. I have always tapped them out in usable condition.

Next, spray on a few coats of flat black (to cut sheen that may reflect from the grille cloth) lightly sanding between coats. I paint it on both sides like the factory does... on advice from a factory guy in Hope. When dry, put a continuous bead of Liquid Nails on the cabinet notch and drop in the new motorboard. Give it a little drying time and be prepared to be amazed. =HornEd

PS: It is really not as hard as it sounds. If you are a router shy, you can probably find someone to make the whole motorboard for you for very little money.

[dougdrake]

----------------

On 1/23/2003 3:59:11 PM Gordon Groff wrote:

Gordon

Looking for a router.

----------------

What kind of router? IP? or Plunge? (LOL - but a serious question)

[HornEd]

With a reply that snappy, dougdrake, maybe you ought to take the plunge and go into the custom motorboard business. =HornEd

PS: I prefer the plunge myself... more versatility.

[HDBRbuilder]

Re: routers...

If you want the best of BOTH worlds in a hand-held router...plunge AND standard...Porter/Cable has a kit router that offers both a standard base AND a plunge base...all neatly stored inside a very nice case...it ain't CHEAP...but if you can afford it...with Porter/Cable's long-tme rep for a long-lasting router...it is probably a good option to go with!!

[HornEd]

Hot damn, Andy, that's the one that I was trying to remember. I even thought the price was reasonable for the build quality. I expect I'll be taking the plunge on yet another router... my son got the last one as I was preparing the house to sell. Said he make me some motorboards. He really does well and has a full shop in a free standing building on the Texas compound I built atop a San Antonio hill thirty-something years ago. Thanks... and stay warm my friend! =HornEd

[HDBRbuilder]

Ed,

I don't know if they still have that Porter/Cable hand-router "kit" there...but Home Depot HAS had them in the past...at least as far as a few months back, I saw them there! The router body itself is NOT quite the "big boy" standard model that one most often sees in woodshops by Porter/Cable...but nonetheless...it still appears more than adequate for most any jobs one would use a hand router on...and with P/C's rep for quality in that particular powertool realm...I am sure it would hold up well in use for quite some time!!

[HornEd]

Yes, Andy, that's what I saw and where I saw it. Had it been equal to the Big Boy I would have bought it... but upon reflection, I don't do Big Boy work anymore for the most part. I just liked the flexibility and build quality for a home use product. =HornEd

PS: Did you see that "Klipschorns for Sale" thread by Hilltop? I wonder what your take on those not-all-together K-Horns at $1,500?

[kippyieh]

Yikes! Thanks for the answer, but a bit overwhelming. I may just print it up and study it in bed tonight.

So to get the better sound I really should try and keep all the speakers the same. Looks like I should start over... grrr, if I only I would have found this forum before I bought... maybe I can pawn my speakers off on my dad...

I think I am going to go all RF-5's now. Question: How in the world do you mount your Center RF-7?

[WMcD]

In my view, the manufacturer is using the term a bit inaccurately.

Timbre more stictly refers to the harmonics which any musical instrument generated above the fundamental note. These give a unique sound to any given instrument. The harmonics appear at integer multiples of the fundamental frequency. So they are always higher.

As a result, a piano and a trumpet both playing an "A" do not sound the same because of harmonics unique to the form of the instrument.

As Ed and others point out, it would be nice if all speakers in a multichannel system were identical - - and therefore have identical frequency response. That is often impractical because of size. Size is almost always an issue arising from the bass system.

On the other hand, treble systems are relatively compact and sometimes a less expensive part of a speaker. Therefore we can have matched treble systems all round. At least then the treble frequency response is the same. This may be the most important frequency to have a match.

So the manufacturers could say they have matched frequency response at high frequencies. That may raise issues in the mind of the buyer about the low frequencies. Therefore they adopt the "matched timbre" terminology.

Gil

[HornEd]

I have answered that question several times in the past few days. Do a search for "horizontalized" in the message section and put HornEd in the author box, don't forget to check on search the message box... and you should find several versions of mounting timbre-matched centers, kippyieh.

IMHO, timbre-matched monopoles in every positon but subwoofer will be the next great audio turn on. The reason? Having five or six discrete full range channels available to professional movie sound mixers in search of Oscars will make 6.1 and 7.1 systems rock. A sound mixer can make any sound ambient or directional by which channels he includes at what volume. Remember, he can stack sounds like you stack dominos... pizzas or playing pieces! Also, since sound mixers traditionally put more emphasis on the right and left mains for music CD's and more emphasis on the center channel for DVD's... having all three front speakers the same gives you the best of all worlds. Thinik about it. =HornEd

[kippyieh]

Sorry about this, for some reason I get an error whenever I use the 'search message text' function and subject doesn't turn anything up. I have read several times about the process you use for reconfiguring the RF-7 for center channel, but how do you actually hang the thing above your television? Construct a shelf? Super glue?

Thanks

[HornEd]

The shelf works... be sure to leave enough room for rear ports. You can put it right on top of a RPTV tilted down as I do. You can mount it on the floor in front of the TV tilted up. If you go to a projection system with a perf screen, you can put the left, center, and right mains right behind the screen... with the grilles off. I even have a friend that built a shelf around his TV to accomodate the timbre-matched center. Once you've heard it perform, you and your whole family won't worry to much how you mount it... they just won't want you to take it away. Adios, buckeroo, I have to hit the trail. =HornEd

[jdm56]

kippyieh,

why in the world would you want to "reconfigure" an RF7 for horizontal mounting? Why not use an RC7 - it is designed to use as a center channel AND to timbre-match RF7's flanking it. (yes, i HAVE read most of the preceeding thread.) but it looks like a whole lot of work for a very questionable gain, imho. true enough the rc7, and for that matter, most dedicated center speakers do not reproduce bass as well as large floor-standing mains will. but so what? redirect center channel bass to a subwoofer or to the mains. no more problem! besides, something the size of an rf7 over your tv? please! unless you have a VERY large widescreen...shoot no, even then, it's still gonna look ridiculous!