Epic CF-3 questions

[henry4841]

27 minutes ago, OO1 said:

 

but the difference in the quality  of the sound between the 100 and 200 watts amp is gonna yield , cleaner , fuller bass and crystal clear Mids and HF 

And how can it do that if tested with oscilloscope which will show it never breaks the 1 watt window? What in the world are the other watts doing or how can the contribute anything to the sound if not used. Makes absolutely no sense. But admittedly I am not that smart so someone with a lab and speakers explain it to me other than Nelson Pass which has demonstrated this and as far as I know still does. 

[OO1]

2 hours ago, henry4841 said:

 a speaker with 100db sensitivity only needs a watt or two to damage ones hearing. 

no ,  it does not   

[Flevoman]

. 

[Zen Traveler]

I didn't see the question but if you have a 100 watt amp and it's not distorting at the volume you want then adding another 100 watts isn't going to do anything. The speaker is only going to use the power it needs and adding more wouldn't be used. That's my take.

[Zen Traveler]

29 minutes ago, OO1 said:

2 hours ago, henry4841 said:

 a speaker with 100db sensitivity only needs a watt or two to damage ones hearing. 

no ,  it does not   

I have no idea what the Frequency Response Curve is of the Epic CF-3, but with RF-7s the problem is providing enough current to handle a jagged curve on a couple of frequencies that dip below 4 Ohms.

[henry4841]

31 minutes ago, OO1 said:

no ,  it does not   

So, you do not believe Nelson Pass. It is good we have someone on the forum that knows as much or more than him. There are many excellent audio engineers in the world then there is Nelson Pass. Trust me he knows his stuff and if says 1 watt on his 95db or less speakers is more than enough I am not dumb enough to say different. Actually he said most tell him to turn the music down when the amp is still in the 1 watt window on his scope. Large listening and test room by the way. 

[mikega]

I run my Chorus one's with a Marantz 2270. They thump. Turned out to be a perfect match.

[henry4841]

5 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

I have no idea what the Frequency Response Curve is of the Epic CF-3, but with RF-7s the problem is providing enough current to handle a jagged curve on a couple of frequencies that dip below 4 Ohms.

Current is not a problem on most of Nelson's Firstwatt 25 watt amplifiers. Many of the designs are what are called follower amplifiers with only current gain on the output devices depending on the input stage for voltage gain. 

 

Look guys there are many variables effecting the performance of an amplifier, damping factor an important part as well. If one of those high power amps sounds better it is in the design of the amplifier at just 1 or 2 watts that is making the difference. Klipsch speakers require very few watts to actually damage your hearing. I have a number of Nelson's designs with around 10 watts and never run out of power but on the retail market one of Nelson's class A Firstwatt amplifiers at 25 watts would be an excellent SS choice. Any more power is just waste. Remember Klipsch speakers filled auditoriums for decades with 5 watt tube amplifiers. That statement alone should satisfy those with doubts. All the talk of mega watt amplifiers on our speakers is just amplifier manufacturers hype promoting their product. Just be sure what you buy sounds outstanding at 1 watt. 

[OO1]

39 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

So, you do not believe Nelson Pass. 

I do , I do .......  

[henry4841]

7 minutes ago, OO1 said:

I do , I do .......  

Randy, here is just one time I have heard Nelson talk about his scope with a 1 watt window. Around the 12 minute mark on this video. It took me some searching and my precious time, I am 74 years old with the clock ticking down, to find this one. Ya'll members are worth it though.

 

Guy's our speakers are fantastic with just a few watts. Just make sure they are good watts. 

 

 

[OO1]

....bump

[Flevoman]

Yesterday, I sent the person a message that I'd like to buy the speakers from him. He has decided to keep them for himself 🙄
Can't blame him, but it's a pity.

[henry4841]

10 hours ago, OO1 said:

....bump

Randy I can be a cantankerous old fart at times so excuse me if I was short yesterday. I am just trying to pass on my limited audio knowledge while I am still around. Perhaps you do not know that I have over 25 working amplifiers at the present time not counting the numerous receivers and assorted audio gear at my house. Amplification has been my thing since I was a kid. Having built 300 watt amplifiers along with a number of tubefanatic's, Maynard, flea watt amps I can honestly say there is not a decent amplifier made that will not sound great on our speakers. This is from experience and testing many of those amplifiers in my home lab with signal generator, scope and distortion analyzing gear. You can fool the ear at times but it is going to show up on the bench if there is a problem. This is just my way of apologizing if I said something that offended you. 

 

Now I want to show everyone something I have that I am willing to say no one on this forum has. Below is a project designed by Nelson Pass for diy'ers that were lucky enough to win the selling of kit lottery. It is a static induction transistor amplifier similar to Nelson's SIT-1 and SIT-2 members here have. It has a whole 10 watts at clipping but only 5 or 6 watts of clean class A single ended watts if my memory is correct about those figures. Not cheap to even build. Cost for kit was over $600 with the retail SIT's selling for considerable more. I was the first to ask Nelson to design a SE amplifier using those Sony V-fets of yesteryear which possible could be a reason I was offered the option for purchasing the kit. I asked him this on another forum years ago about designing this amp and it was a few years later before he presented this project for members there. If our members do not know a static induction transistor has curves much like a 300B tube so it is possible to have the 300B sound in a SS transistor. It does sound amazing. Really close sounding to a really good SET tube amplifier. 

 

 

[OO1]

2 hours ago, henry4841 said:

Randy 

  Henry  , exactly ,.....   Nelson Pass  designed   the Stasis  SS amps ,  like the SA/12e   Classe-A,  250 wpc @8 Ohms monoblock  

[henry4841]

27 minutes ago, OO1 said:

  Henry  , exactly ,.....   Nelson Pass  designed   the Stasis  SS amps ,  like the SA/12e   Classe-A,  250 wpc @8 Ohms monoblock  

Yes he did and he has said in multiple videos he designed high power low number amps for years but now he designs amplifiers that sound good to him. Firstwatt more so than PassLabs. PassLabs has it's own customer base. I try and read everything he has wrote and watch any public video he has done. I guess you could call me an old groupie.  

[henry4841]

Just thought I would add, I am here to make friends. Lord knows I have made enough enemies over my lifetime. 

[henry4841]

Flevoman and I have been corresponding via PM's and he is still a skeptic on amplifier power usage on our speakers because of many on this forum claiming more is what one needs. The best way I know to phrase it is this way,

 

Prove it. Show me on your scope how many watts the AC audio signal is operating in with on your speakers. I would love to see the audio signal using more than a few watts hooked up to Klipsch speakers. Facts talk BS walks. I would like to see our speakers operating with a steady 10watts of power. I can guarantee you would not be able to stay in the room. My understanding is before SS transistors most small venues, movie theaters etc, used 5 watt tube amplifiers with some brand of horn speakers. Large auditoriums used some form of PP tube amplification with no more than 30 watts per channel. This was the norm for decades, not years. 

 

Most will never see the audio signal leave the 1 watt window in a home environment. Not even close. Not on our highly efficient speakers. An audio signal is an AC signal easily seen on a scope in an amplifier whose operation depends on DC to function. AC from the wall is turn into DC as soon as it leaves the PS transformer to enable the amp to function. What good is more watts if the audio signal will never see them. Here is a small ac signal using less than a watt, on peaks by the way, which only when abusing your hearing will ever see more than a few watts more. Exactly how can more benefit the audio signal when the audio signal never gets into that region. Here it is operating happily in a 1 watt window with tons of more watts that it will never use. Those on technical forums understand this, the knowledgeable ones at least. 

 

All of this is only meaningful on our forum to stress the importance of the first watt on our speakers. You want the amp that functions best at 1 watt and not how the amp functions at 100watts with our speakers. With our speakers think quality over quantity when it comes to watts. The Deware Zen with it's few watts is perfect with our speakers and will outperform most of the SS amplifiers when it comes to vocals, soundstage and pure lovely sounding mids. Not the best for bass lovers but as PWK said, music lives in the mids. If the mids do not sound outstanding I could care less how the rest of the frequency range sounds. 

 

It all comes down to when talking power needs, if it (the audio signal) never sees it (more than a few watts) how is it going to be better having more in your amplifier. But then there are some excellent sounding mega watt amplifiers at a premium price that sound wonderful on our speakers. I have one myself with 150watts per channel with BJT's, and not mosfets that Nelson prefers, that performs excellent in the one watt range. Admittedly though I have mine biased up where the first few watts are operating in class A and not class A/B.

 

There is a difference in sound between a BJT amplifier and a mosfet one. I like both sounds for change. I also like the difference in sound of tubes and SS. The thing is guys you get a lot better sound for your money with a tube amplifier. An amplifier like the Zen on our speakers will shock you on the quality of sound for $1200. One will need to spend much more in a SS amp to equal the sound of the Zen. For most that is. Sound is subjective. If you went from a 25 watt SS amplifier to a 100watt SS one and the sound improved dramatically to your ears it is the quality of sound in the 1 watt window that the amplifier makes being the difference and not the extra watts that will never be used. These days in SS the design in high end audio is what you pay for and not the watts. Companies touting amplifier watts understand that is what the average consumer thinks more is going to be better so that is what is shouted in their advertising. My amplifier has 200watts per channel and my competitors only has 100 watts for the same price is what has been said for decades in rags and advertising to promote their product. I have had only one pair of speakers that actually need mega watts, a pair of Bose 901's series 2 I believe which only opened up when I put a 190watt per channel amplifier on them. We as audiophiles should learn better if you are serious about your music with our horns. 

[stormin]

Posted April 13, 2021

  On 4/12/2021 at 9:34 AM, Trey Cannon said:

This is a preference question or a Math question....

 

Math...

101db@1w/1m

2 x power = 3db 

100 W ph.  

1 Watt dubled, then dubled...

1,2,3,8,16,32,64,128...that  is 7 times. 

7 x 3 =21db output...

101 + 21 = 122db max out. 

to get there clean, you need at least 6db headroom. So 4 x the power.

128 x 4 = 512 Watts per channel to reach full volume with headroom at 1 meter. 

 

Your seat is ....4 meters away...for fun...-6db every time the distance is doubled.

that's 2 x -6 = -12db off the level due to distance. 

SO, with about 500 Watts to each speaker, you can have 6db of head room and about 120db at your seat. 

IF you want 3db less than that, cut the power in half. 

 

 

Thank you Trey.

 

That explains why for 30 years I have always loved these with big ole amps. With all the other models I've owned the K-48 is a freaking beast!

I've found that 1200 wpc works very nice.  I have to thank Craig for that one.

[stormin]

I like a concert from time to time. I don't believe I can get there on a watt or two.

 

This has nothing to do with what is recommended or preferred by other members.

 

This is a choice of my own doing.

 

Rock on!!!!!

 

As a side note I use a pair of corner loaded subs that are capable of 135 db. Now its a Party!!! 

 

As Schwarzenegger said in Commando " I eat Green Berets for breakfast"

 

That is what the Chorus said to the KLF 😁

 

This is all in fun by the way not intended to rain on any parades.

 

The point about better quality at lower watts is very probable with the better sound along my journey.

 

[henry4841]

33 minutes ago, stormin said:

Posted April 13, 2021

  On 4/12/2021 at 9:34 AM, Trey Cannon said:

This is a preference question or a Math question....

 

Math...

101db@1w/1m

2 x power = 3db 

100 W ph.  

1 Watt dubled, then dubled...

1,2,3,8,16,32,64,128...that  is 7 times. 

7 x 3 =21db output...

101 + 21 = 122db max out. 

to get there clean, you need at least 6db headroom. So 4 x the power.

128 x 4 = 512 Watts per channel to reach full volume with headroom at 1 meter. 

 

Your seat is ....4 meters away...for fun...-6db every time the distance is doubled.

that's 2 x -6 = -12db off the level due to distance. 

SO, with about 500 Watts to each speaker, you can have 6db of head room and about 120db at your seat. 

IF you want 3db less than that, cut the power in half. 

 

 

Thank you Trey.

 

That explains why for 30 years I have always loved these with big ole amps. With all the other models I've owned the K-48 is a freaking beast!

I've found that 1200 wpc works very nice.  I have to thank Craig for that one.

I would still say to Trey, show me on a scope how much power you are using at home on your speakers. Theory and real life circumstance are totally different. As talented as Trey is, I totally respect him being a Klipsch executive, I will stand with Nelson Pass who is a step or two above anyone when it comes to amplification. When it comes to Klipsch speakers I will turn to Roy and Trey and when it comes to amplifiers I will listen to Nelson Pass. When he says his 95db speakers never exceed a 1 watt window in his rather large listening room with visitors telling him time and again to turn it down where they can talk I will stand up and listen to what he has to say. I would enjoy Nelson and Trey debating the issue or for that matter anyone else from Klipsch. Klipsch speakers needing 100watts, get real guys. 

 

Many do not know who Nelson is on this forum. Every year, except for a few execptions, there is what is called a Burning Amp Festival in San Francisco where designers and electronic geeks fly in from all over the world to spend time with Nelson and hear whatever he has to say. Klipsch executives would be more than welcome to attend and I am sure given a spot to present a presentation. It would be good for Klipsch and everyone that attends or watch via internet. There has been speaker reps there before. The list of people giving presentations is long such as, Douglas Self, Roger Modjeski,  Siegfried Linkwitz, Wayne Colburn, Bob Cordell, Scott Wurcer, Damian Martin, Paul Norton, among others. The giants in audio reproductions.