Klipsch Cornwall 1 Midrange Horn Question...

[henry4841]

12 hours ago, Scott Grammer said:

OK, so while I have been working in audio electronics for a while (since 1977), I am the new guy here, and I understand my place as such. So I definitely would not like there to be a "capacitor war" on my account.

 

That said, I believe there's a lot more to cap replacement in crossovers than "is the old cap really bad." Changing from bipolar electrolytics to film caps can change the sound of a speaker, and not necessarily for the better. Sometimes, a crossover designer will voice a speaker with a certain kind of caps (and inductors, as well) that have maybe a bit more than the minimum ESR (or DCR in the case of inductors). Replacing these with "better" components can change the sound of a speaker considerably. I have a pair of smaller Advents on my main workbench as test speakers, and a couple of years ago I recapped the crossovers (it was necessary, the caps were seriously leaky) and I replaced the bipolar electrolytics with thumb-sized Nichicon film caps. This got rid of the excessive midrange reaching the fried egg tweeters (which is why I checked out the crossovers in the first place), but the VERY low ESR of the Nichicons made the top end brighter than normal. I've gotten kind of used to it, but at first it was bothersome. I may still add some 1 ohm resistors in series with the tweets to tame them down. That is, if I ever have time to fool with it....

 

The Cornwalls I have include what I believe to be the original oil caps. They tested well, and they're not physically leaking oil (and yes, you DEFINITELY can smell it when that happens), so I don't plan on replacing them any time soon. I don't think they're the root of the problem. I will be replacing the horn gaskets soon with some supplied by a friend who used to build PA speakers, and we'll see what that does. I just have to get them - and some time - first.

 

Hey Scott, did you know that the late Roger Modjeski said at the Burning Amp Festival almost a decade ago said that sonically he sees nothing wrong with an electrolytic capacitor. He also said if it were not for the tiny amount of leakage all electrolytic caps have he would have not problem using one for a coupling cap in a tube amp. Shocked me when I first heard him say that but at one time big electrolytics were used on the output of many amps and receivers. Nelson Pass still has projects that use a big, talking 10Kuf, on the output of the power transistors blocking DC getting to the speakers. Changed my attitude towards electrolytics in the audio path.

 

What I have found restoring and recapping many old receivers from the past is heat is the enemy of capacitors. I always make it a point to check every capacitor I take out recapping and most test within tolerance and still work fine. The problem ones are always on the board that are upside down inside the amp or receiver trapping heat. They are almost always bad. Naturally there is always a failure of any component in an electronic device including capacitors sometime. 

 

Just a note on why products from Passlabs have capacitors that last for decades. IMHO that is. Companies like Nelson's use quality caps rated well above what they will ever see as far as voltage or watts never stressing them. That and keeping the inside of the product as cool as possible also contributes to long life. Very little average current is passing through a Klipsch speaker crossover. On an average of only a few watts at most. Most are out in the open where heat is not a big problem as well. Other than leaking oil most are not what a tech would call bad and will still function fine. 

 

One thing for sure though, changing capacitors will give you a different sound. Most say their speakers treble is brighter after doing so. Klipsch is now offering polyester capacitors for those desiring new capacitors with J&M and Dean selling and replacing them.  For Klipsch crossover replacement or recapping Dean is the man to see. 

 

Getting back to what you perceive as a problem it is hard to believe there is something wrong with your drivers or horns along with your crossover capacitors testing OK. That is the reason I say your room or the amplifier you are driving them with could possible be the problem. Many times I have thought I had a problem during a test when it turned out to be my method of testing was not correct. Just saying. Do you still think the problem is in the speaker itself? You may want to throw some new film caps in just to see. Like me you probably have some in stock. Would not take must time and you never know. We cannot test everything that the ear hears. 

 

I am really happy to see another electronic guy on this forum. Look forward to learning from you and sharing our experiences. At one time I did make a living with electronics but not in the audio field. Except for a short time repairing car radios early in my 20's. Electronics now is just a hobby to pass some time doing something constructive in my old age, 74. 

[henry4841]

Not to give the wrong impression, I am not against replacing the capacitors in our old crossovers. Techs recap old electronic products to ensure the customer gets decades more use out of their equipment. The same applies to our speakers. Drivers and horns along with those quality woofers Klipsch uses will last longer than most owners. But if like the sound you are now hearing I still say leave them alone. But your speakers can and will sound different replacing the capacitors, perhaps brighter and more lively which may or maybe not be a good thing. I would be sure to get the old capacitors back from Dean just in case. When working for a living I never threw the old part away until I was satisfied with the result. 

[henry4841]

13 hours ago, Deang said:

^This. 
 

Welcome to the forum Scott. 

Hey Dean, you have been using the new approved Klipsch capacitors in your builds for a few months now but I have not seen you post your impression of them sonically compared to some of the other capacitors you liked in the past. Have you had a chance to listen to a crossover or two with the new caps in your LaScala's? Detailed review would be an asset to the forum. 

[Marvel]

3 hours ago, henry4841 said:

At one time I did make a living with electronics but not in the audio field

I get that... I worked for my BIL, repairing 3 phase motor controllers (mostly) for the knitting industry. Most of that business went overseas a long time ago.

[OO1]

  if these were my speakers , I would replace the capacitors and the K-55V diaphragms   I faced a very similar issue with 1980 CW's    and it was night and day  

[Scott Grammer]

2 hours ago, OO1 said:

  if these were my speakers , I would replace the capacitors and the K-55V diaphragms   I faced a very similar issue with 1980 CW's    and it was night and day  

You know, I was thinking about those diaphragms just today. It seems to me that the phenolic diaphragms might stiffen with age, much like my knees have. Where would one find new diaphragms for this driver?

[Scott Grammer]

8 hours ago, henry4841 said:

 

Hey Scott, did you know that the late Roger Modjeski said at the Burning Amp Festival almost a decade ago said that sonically he sees nothing wrong with an electrolytic capacitor. He also said if it were not for the tiny amount of leakage all electrolytic caps have he would have not problem using one for a coupling cap in a tube amp. Shocked me when I first heard him say that but at one time big electrolytics were used on the output of many amps and receivers. Nelson Pass still has projects that use a big, talking 10Kuf, on the output of the power transistors blocking DC getting to the speakers. Changed my attitude towards electrolytics in the audio path.

 

What I have found restoring and recapping many old receivers from the past is heat is the enemy of capacitors. I always make it a point to check every capacitor I take out recapping and most test within tolerance and still work fine. The problem ones are always on the board that are upside down inside the amp or receiver trapping heat. They are almost always bad. Naturally there is always a failure of any component in an electronic device including capacitors sometime. 

 

Just a note on why products from Passlabs have capacitors that last for decades. IMHO that is. Companies like Nelson's use quality caps rated well above what they will ever see as far as voltage or watts never stressing them. That and keeping the inside of the product as cool as possible also contributes to long life. Very little average current is passing through a Klipsch speaker crossover. On an average of only a few watts at most. Most are out in the open where heat is not a big problem as well. Other than leaking oil most are not what a tech would call bad and will still function fine. 

 

One thing for sure though, changing capacitors will give you a different sound. Most say their speakers treble is brighter after doing so. Klipsch is now offering polyester capacitors for those desiring new capacitors with J&M and Dean selling and replacing them.  For Klipsch crossover replacement or recapping Dean is the man to see. 

 

Getting back to what you perceive as a problem it is hard to believe there is something wrong with your drivers or horns along with your crossover capacitors testing OK. That is the reason I say your room or the amplifier you are driving them with could possible be the problem. Many times I have thought I had a problem during a test when it turned out to be my method of testing was not correct. Just saying. Do you still think the problem is in the speaker itself? You may want to throw some new film caps in just to see. Like me you probably have some in stock. Would not take must time and you never know. We cannot test everything that the ear hears. 

 

I am really happy to see another electronic guy on this forum. Look forward to learning from you and sharing our experiences. At one time I did make a living with electronics but not in the audio field. Except for a short time repairing car radios early in my 20's. Electronics now is just a hobby to pass some time doing something constructive in my old age, 74. 

I was not aware of what Modjeski had said, but for the most part, I agree. Properly functioning capacitors do not have a sound of their own, but not all caps are suitable for all functions, as Modjeski noted about the leakage of electrolytics. And I used to run a Pioneer SX-626 with cap-coupled outputs. No problem at all.

 

Heat is indeed the enemy of caps, and most other components. I have two SX-1980's in the shop right now, and it's almost a sure bet that the voltage regulator board, which lies in the bottom center of the chassis and is loaded with poorly heat-sunk pass transistors that run really hot, will need major work in both units.

 

The big problem with electrolytics is not that they're electrolytics, but rather that so many nowadays are cheap Chinese electrolytics. Those things are garbage.

 

I still haven't decided what to do to the Cornwalls. But when I try something, I'll post about it here.

 

 

[Marvel]

36 minutes ago, Scott Grammer said:

Where would one find new diaphragms for this driver?

Those are the atlas drivers aren't they? I believe Simply Speakers in St. Pete has the real deal. You could check with Klipsch parts (they may have them) to at least make sure the part number of the diaphragm.

[OO1]

2 hours ago, Scott Grammer said:

 diaphragms might stiffen with age 

  Atlas Part # D- 20GB    try  klipsch   800-554-7724     email   https://support.klipsch.com/hc/en-us/requests/new

or 

https://www.fullcompass.com/prod/027035-atlas-ied-d-20gb-diaphragm-for-pd-5vh-and-pd-5vt

 

 

[the real Duke Spinner]

I changed mine out for JBL Tremendous improvement in resolution and clarity

[Scott Grammer]

2 hours ago, Marvel said:

Those are the atlas drivers aren't they? I believe Simply Speakers in St. Pete has the real deal. You could check with Klipsch parts (they may have them) to at least make sure the part number of the diaphragm.

I'll contact SS. I use them a lot. Thanks.

[Scott Grammer]

25 minutes ago, the real Duke Spinner said:

I changed mine out for JBL Tremendous improvement in resolution and clarity

One option I'm considering is along those lines, but more.... Of course, talk of modding Klipsch speakers if frowned upon here. so I'll say no more. 

[Scott Grammer]

So today, I came home from work early as I'm not feeling well, and my apprentice is not either. I just spoke to him by phone and he says he has tested negative for Covid, but still feels bad. I'm old and broken down, so feeling bad is not unusual for me, but he's young and strong, and for him to be feeling that rough concerns me a bit. If you are a praying person, please send up some words for Ryan's health.

 

That said, I thought I'd take a minute to sum up this thread for any interested parties by saying that last night I made the decision to spend a fair amount of money ordering a  number of parts that will be going into my Cornwalls in an attempt to make them sound more like what I want. I won't detail what I'm planning here, as such things are understandably frowned upon by the good folks who host this forum, but I will be discussing the work on my YouTube channel, the link to which can be found on my profile page. It will be a couple of weeks before work begins, as it will take a while for all the parts to arrive from the various vendors. When it's all said and done, assuming I'm happy with the outcome, I will have a lot of original Klipsch parts for sale, and I will post them here before putting them on eBay, and that way perhaps someone can repair/restore their speakers with original parts. Thanks!

[billybob]

Will do, meanwhile, would have your friend retest in a couple of days if not feeling better. If a strain of, takes a couple of days to show up. If worse may as well take the trip into the doc..., Or, have him do it now.

911, you know...

Food poison...?

Edited September 5, 2023 by billybob

[OO1]

 school  starts  , it's  germ  season  

[Marvel]

We've had clients and staff testing positive for the past few weeks. Hoping our agency doesn't have to go into total lockdown (we have about 60 residential homes, so it's not like everyone is in the same location).

 

Praying for you and Ryan both.

[Scott Grammer]

3 hours ago, OO1 said:

 school  starts  , it's  germ  season  

True, and he does have a number of younger siblings around all the time. I'll be checking on him tomorrow.

[Scott Grammer]

1 hour ago, Marvel said:

We've had clients and staff testing positive for the past few weeks. Hoping our agency doesn't have to go into total lockdown (we have about 60 residential homes, so it's not like everyone is in the same location).

 

Praying for you and Ryan both.

Thanks.

[Scott Grammer]

5 hours ago, billybob said:

Will do, meanwhile, would have your friend retest in a couple of days if not feeling better. If a strain of, takes a couple of days to show up. If worse may as well take the trip into the doc..., Or, have him do it now.

911, you know...

Food poison...?

I set him up with a couple of extra test kits I had. I'll suggest to him that he retest on Thursday or Friday.