AnalOg Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Hey all, Got the Paramours together and playing for the last 4 days now. Have the MF 300 as preamp at the moment feeding my RF3's. First and foremost coupled with the RF's ( I believe 96 dbl sensetivity), these are not ment to be driven beyond 85 dbl's seated at about twelve feet from drivers. Great for jazz, but lack that slamm & impact required for more demanding music. This could very well be a speaker issue but that is my cunclusion. The laid back, placed rather than played characteristics these amps exhibit leave me with wanting something more, unless I'm late night listening. I will be building the Foreplay when it arrives, I'm anxious to see what characteristic change there will be, maybe better gain, i.e. fuller sound with the Foreplay as apposed to the SS MF300. I do find the gain & dynamics is better with cd over vinyl, were as in the Scott I perfer vinyl sound quality over cd. One other bothersome trait is the slight hum I get from both channels, it doesn't change with volume gain, I havent totally narrowed it down but I suspect its the tubes because the hum is slightly different in either speaker. As it stands as of now I perfer the soul & dynamics the Scott produces for my listening habits. That may very well change if theres a void somewhere in my equipment thats not giving me the full benefits of the 2a3 compliment. Any feedback on possible upgrades would be aprreciated. I will post a picture this weekend when I get the time. Thankx Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Tom, Good Job. You have more patience than I have. I think your problem is your pre amp. I too am using a SS Pre with tubes in my bedroom system. I also get sounds ok with Jazz, but sounds flat with harder edgier music. I think when you get your Foreplay working you will be very happy. Do post pictures. Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted March 7, 2003 Author Share Posted March 7, 2003 The synergy between the pre & paramours is a definite variable in the setup, I temp. hooked the Scott center out channel to the mono's and big change in amount of bloom in the presentation. I ran it like this for about 5 minutes, as per advised by Craig, it isn't adviceable to run for a long period of time because the Scott needs to see a load at the speaker terminals not to mention this is a mono output. tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 I doubt the hum you're hearing has anything to do with the tubes. The Paramour is a SET amp & SET amps are known to produce higher levels of hum & noise than push-pull designs which inherently have the ablity to cancel those components. The noise & hum performance on the Paramour & Paraglows are one reason I decided to pass on these amps. The power bandwidth also leaves a lot to be desired. Although I must admit, they are an excellent value, for the money. Buying all the parts on your own will usually cost you more than their kits. "93 db speakers are satisfactory for less stringent requirements (chamber music, soft jazz, acoustical) and smaller rooms, and we even use a pair of Paramours in our shop with some 87 dB sensitivity monitors for non intrusive background music." from the Bottlehead website Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted March 7, 2003 Author Share Posted March 7, 2003 Artto, On the contrary regarding the tubes. I have two extra 12at7, that I installed, infortunatly there not matched so the sound stage is uneven for lack of a better word, the hum did get quieter to an extent. I think some quality tubes will bring the hum down to a minimal. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Obviously each tube has its own noise level & signature. The fact is, SET amps will exhibit more of this. & I doubt you're going to be to get rid of it. Especially on a $250 kit, without performing extensive modification & additional cost. Like I said, the Paramours are a great value, but you're still getting what you paid for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted March 7, 2003 Author Share Posted March 7, 2003 Artto, First off the kit is $549.00. I never said I was going to get rid of the hum, just bring it down to a minimal. Bottlehead came up with an upgrade called the C4S which will significantly decrease noise and hum levels and increase the linearity of the driver stage. The previous version kits averaged about 20-30mV RMS hum, with the C4S installed the hum level is reduced to about 2mV RMS. I don't have any test equipment to measure any of this nor did I hear them previously to installing the upgrade, But I suspect the hum can be toned to a minimal with a quieter tube. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Tom Second off, $549 is for a pair. So you basically have yourself a pair of $250 (or so) amps (so, I rounded out the $49/2, big deal). I'm well aware of what the previous hum levels were. IMO those levels were completely intolerable. The current version with 2mv is respectable. My point is, SET amps, for all their other appealing qualities, are typically prone to higher levels of hum & noise, which unfortunately, the speakers that can benefit the most from SET sound, also expose these characteristics. And you are not going to significantly change that with a tube unless the tube is going bad in the first place. The inexpensive kits from Bottlehead are no exception, & are probably a fine example of what SET amps cannot do. They are simple and crude circuits around which there is a cult rather than any real foundation for good sound. They exhibit very high second and third harmonic distortion components that rise quickly with power, which is what characterises their sound, but execution has a lot to do with it. They have a characteristic euphonic distortion pattern. If thats what you like, & you can tolerate the hum & noise, GREAT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Tom, You did good. Worry about the pre and you will be happy. My PP amp has more hum then my SET. Don't get into a Pi**ing contest. I hope everyone has a good weekend. Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 I WANT A GOOD OL' FASHIONED PISSING CONTEST. SET is not all its cracked up to be. My PP SS amps have more hum than my PP valve amps, even though they spec out 20Db better. My PP valve amps are dead quiet, turned all the way up, with ear to the speaker. Futhermore, a correctly designed amplifier doesn't have an apparent anything. My objective is minimum degradation and maximum transparency. And there are very few amps in the world that approach that, regardless of price or design type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted March 7, 2003 Author Share Posted March 7, 2003 "Second off, $549 is for a pair. So you basically have yourself a pair of $250 (or so) amps (so, I rounded out the $49/2, big deal)." I could have countered this absurd statement so many ways to Sunday. I'm not even going to go there. No I cant help it, here it is. So by your logical deduction word for word: $120 is for PAIR of Nikes. So you basically have yourself a PAIR of $60 shoes. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Why do you want a pi$$ing contest? The is getting old. You have a very good system. The room you built for your system is beautiful. Some of what you did I am going to try when I finally get to gut my HT room. Tom did something that most people on this board wouldn't even attempt to do. Your reply is what do you expect for $250. He's only had them going for a couple of day's. He will get the hum out. Go to Audio Asylum and you hear the same complaint on amps that cost thousands of dollars. He's got a ground problem some where. No big deal. He will find it. But to rip him a new one is not what this board is about. In the last couple weeks you have stated that you don't like SET amps. That's great. Don't buy one. I'm out of here for the weekend. I wish you lived close by. I'd invite you over to drink some beer or wine. We could stand on the front poarch and then we could really get into a pi$$ing contest. Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 no, thats $60 for EACH shoe idiot, NOT A PAIR. therefore its $274.50 for EACH amp. If I buy 3 Paramours (as I would have to) I would have 3 (three) $274.50 amps for a total cost of $823.50 for THREE amplifiers. You have TWO amplifiers there, which, all things being equal, costs more to make than ONE 2-channel amplifier. TWO chasis. TWO power supplies. TWO power cords. ETC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 I can piss farther than you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Tom, Great job !! Hope the most important part was a achieved !! Did you have fun doing it ? Chill out guys who cares who paid what for what !! Oh and my shoes cost 29.99 each and I have 3 feet so ....... Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprocket Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Tom, My stock Paramours hum slightly also. However the amount of hum changes with different tubes. Driving my Cornwalls they make very good bass. Enough to please most. The hum is just noticeable from my chair with the music on pause. I've been told tracking down hum starts with checking for bad solder joints. After that getting familiar with the search function on the Bottlehead Forum. Also very important to check the "Loose Parts" section esp Voltsecond's notes. I've heard other Paramours that were silent after his filament snubber mod. Good luck RB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 HEY! I SAID I WANTED A PISSING CONTEST! not some woofies who love to listen to amps humming. If I want to listen to humming, I can hum very well myself thank you! and mike, come on, your piss doesn't even stink! I can't smell it! I'm telling you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Are you offering hummers ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 No. I said I can hum. I play in a band uuuhhh. craig, what are u doing with that 3rd foot? It doesn't hurt as much if you take the shoe off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted March 7, 2003 Author Share Posted March 7, 2003 Craig, I had a blast doing this, never did anything like it. As far as learning anything, mostly how to make a good solder joint. As far as the electrical theory behind it, I was do busy trying to make sure I put everything in the right place. As far as the manual goes, its mostly instructional on how to build the unit, no explanations on why this goes here and so on. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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