AndyKubicki Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 I found some old tapes I made around 1987 from vinyl, and I sure missed playing them. A couple Jazz Crusaders-Old Socks New Shoes, Moraz/Bruford-Flags. There are several more records I have that I don't have CDs of yet, as well as some that have not been released as CDs, like Don Ellis' Autumn and Live at Filmore. Nonetheless, I couldn't help notice what drove me to digital in the first place, and that is the noise...even a clean groove makes noise. Dust pops make it worse. Then there's the distortion that increases as the needle collects dust. Of course, these being cassettes, there's alo the tape hiss. I used (when I had my TT working) anti static and dust solutions, anti static guns that zapped ions and neutralized static, but the noise was still there. I had a B&O 4002 TT, so it was no cheap POS. Those of you who love vinyl must either keep that noise to a minimum or you mentally block it out, which I cannot do. Do the more expensive TTs somehow not generate as much noise??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whell Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Andy: There are trade-offs to just about any medium. CD's lack the punch and accuracy that vinyl has, but can become noisy when dirty. A year ago, you would not ahve heard my say that about vinyl when compared to CD's, but this forum prompted me back into vinyl, and I've grown to appreciate and rediscover the differences. I'm wondering what you'd find using the search tool in this forum if your did a search on recrod cleaning. I know its been discussed here, and some folks have some pretty original solutions. When I get more time, I might experiment with some suggestions I've seen here and in the vinyl asylum (another place to search). Certainly, you'll find some suggestions to reduce background noise. A better TT will not mask the noise on a dirty, scratchy record, but will bring out the best on a good piece of vinyl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Audiophiles tune out the surface noise of LPs because they are too busy noticing the enhanced sonics of thousand dollar upgrades to their power cords. C&S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
middlecreekguy Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 ---------------- On 3/28/2003 10:20:23 AM Clipped and Shorn wrote: Audiophiles tune out the surface noise of LPs because they are too busy noticing the enhanced sonics of thousand dollar upgrades to their power cords. C&S ---------------- That`s funny C&S. I got a vivid mental picture of that. Yeah, the record has some pops and ticks, but listen to the richness of those pops and ticks. I do love vinyl though. Vinyl is music. What ever that means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted March 28, 2003 Author Share Posted March 28, 2003 Audiophiles tune out the surface noise of LPs because they are too busy noticing the enhanced sonics of thousand dollar upgrades to their power cords. C&S, LOL! You're killin' me! This is a great line! There are trade-offs to just about any medium. CD's lack the punch and accuracy that vinyl has, but can become noisy when dirty. Whell, this is true and it brings to mind what was said by John Eargle at the So Cal Horn meeting, which you can read here: http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=30679&sessionID={510AF868-EC00-4843-8B5B-03C694CDDA5A} Briefly, he said vinyl recordings were eq'ed in a different way, and thus the difference. I'm not sure this explains all differences, but it could be the answer to a lot of differing CDs vs LPs of the 70s and 80s, which have not been transferred to digital with enough care. However, if I ever want to hear some of my vinyl, I will have to get a TT eventually. At that time, I will also have to clean my collection, and I'm sure that will help. But my personal preference and therefore, where initial monies will go, will be digital. Most likely, a Sony ES series and soon as I can put the gold dabloons together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Ok. I have an admission to make. Its embarrassing for an audiophile. Due to other circumstances (such as playing in a working band), my listening room was used primarily for rehearsing for many years. For convenience, I used mostly CDs & some tape exclusively. The result was my vinyl & TT werent touched for about 8 years. (YIKES!!!) However, things are now all back up & running. I must tell you, Im amazed at how good the vinyl sounds. And its quiet. Yes, my vinyl has been extremely well cared for. Before I even got things up & running, I bought a new replacement stylus, just as a precaution since I figured the stylus fulcrum (grommet) had probably stiffened up over the years of non-use & I didnt want to expose my records to potential damage resulting from that. At this point, the vinyl sounded very good, but, there was that good old groove noise, ticks & pops, etc. However I noticed that there always seemed to be more noise from the left channel. I tried re-leveling the TT, checking the arm & pickup alignments, etc. No change. Then, sort of by accident, I discovered that the damping brush (Shure V15-V MR) was not allowing the cartridge to track at the proper weight. The bearings in the damping brush felt gritty & did not allow the brush to fall slowly under its own weight. Shure replaced the stylus. And then, after another meticulous setup, guess what? No noise. Under most listening conditions,, there is nary are tick or pop & little if any groove noise, unless of course youre turning up the gain for something like Supertramp at 110Db+. I suspect that not only was the defective damping brush causing problems, but Id be willing to bet the stylus cantilever was also damaged & wasnt aligned properly either, possibly canted to one side (left channel). So I guess what Im saying is that TT/arm/pickup setup can make a big difference as to how much noise you will get from vinyl. In the past, my setup must not have been that good because I really dont remember my records being this quiet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Well, I'm overhauling some of Andy's old cassettes right now. Cassettes get no respect. These are (by Andy's recollection) twenty years old, mostly not exactly high grade even for then, and recorded without Dolby. Guess what? Transfer at 24/88.2, carefully apply multi-channel noise reduction and dynamic restoration, and they sound better than most commercial pop CD's...both musically and technically. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted March 28, 2003 Author Share Posted March 28, 2003 It would be helpful here to mention that the tapes Dave is writing about are tapes of my old band, where we located a couple Shure mikes in the room, checked the level on a cheap cassette recorder, pushed the "play" button and played. Additionally, I might not have the masters. If I recall, these were copied from the masters! If these sound as good as CDs now, my jaw will permanently drag on the floor! The more I think of it, Art is probably correct. A good TT, with the arm and needle tracking as they should, will probably do musc better than most other cheap TTs. Though my B&O was expensive when I bought it (about $900 in 1980 Dollars), I have often wondered how good it really is, tangetial tracking and all. If I can I can find a new cartridge, I'll clean it up and get the chord I need for it and try some better cleaning procedures on my vinyl. But I have not seen cartridges for this animal lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 CD is so effortless; 70 minutes + of music. Ad a 5 disk changer and wow. People really do not like to adjust a TT and clean every record. I am waiting for a VPI record cleaner to arrive in the next 2 weeks and I am commited to investing time to tweaking the turntable. Even with a basic viyl setup i think it is worth it. The biggest rip off of CD "overselling" was probably just crappy equipment and apathetic mastering techniques. Cannnot beat a Blue Note CD! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted March 28, 2003 Author Share Posted March 28, 2003 Prices are quoted in US dollars, and do not include tax, shipping, and handling. Ordering information is provided below. Model Description Our Price MMC 2 20-20,000 +/-1.5 dB Channel Separation, 1kHz, 25dB Channel Separation, 10 kHz, 20 dB Output, 0.6mV Recommended Tracking Force 1 gram US$395.95 MMC 4 20-20,000 +/-2.5 dB Channel Separation, 1kHz, 22dB Channel Separation, 10 kHz, 17 dB Output, 0.6mV Recommended Tracking Force 1.2 gram US$149.95 MMC 20 S-R* Stereo cartridge with spherical framed diamond US$349.95 At this price, I will not be getting the cartridge too soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 >Ad a 5 disk changer and wow (editorial insert follows), 75% of the music is still not there. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 I was kidding about the 5 CD changer being desired. It did not come out as goofy as I meant it to be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Well, I couldn't resist. As you know if you've seen my posts, I think Redbook has an edge in it's extremely wide dynamic range. LP excels in wide frequency response and complete waveforms, but suffers from normally perhaps 30 db usable dynamic range. Of course, you can fix that with DBX or similar processors, while you can't fix what ain't there on CD. When all is said and done, most pop sounds as good or better on CD, while acoustical stuff and more complex pop sounds better on LP. There is no right or wrong, just the appropriate medium for the subject matter. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 "LP excels in wide frequency response and complete waveforms" An electric rock guitar has a complete waveform, I guess. I really like it. And strings in classical. CDs do not reproduce these well IMHO. "I think Redbook has an edge in it's extremely wide dynamic range." Some of the NAXOS classical, in particular Organ has some great dynamics. Also vocal groups like Anonomous Four. Or the quiet blackness between challenging music in Patricia Barber "Companion" on Blue Note. Compression really messes up CDs. I think Supernatural by Santana is great music for its genre, but so bland and absent of transients. Santana on Blue Note, Chesky, or Mapleshades would be sweet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 You are correct. I just didn't address that in particular. Perhaps it's prejudicial (come to think of it, it certainly is), but I guess I just don't don't worry as much about analog waveforms on an electric guitar as opposed to a Stradivarius or Amati. When Midnight Oil is pounding my brains out I don't get all that critical about fine points. Not quite ready for sainthood. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Midnight Oil pounding is maybe more of a passionate listening experience, not necessarily a critical one. Sergovia Clapton Michael Hedges Dorbo Guitar Mark Knopler(although some of his CDs are great guitar sounds) I just got a Nat King Cole 3 LP box set. Although my vinyl front end is still a few weeks away from being updated; just Dual TT and entry level ortofon cart(soon to be Michel Focus S and Grado Gold). His voice is not done justice by digital at all, in any CD I have heard. Idea.... In the pre digital age people used to have passionate dance parties. Now more folks do the digital and Bose Lifestyle thing; they sit on the couch and chat. BORING! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Still have 25+ year old cassette recordings that deliver some VERY good sound. Most are recordings from 70's & early 80's LP's. Also recorded the majority of my mid-late 80's CD's. Found that I preferred the sound of cassette playback over those harsher sounding CD's. Their was the added cost of buying blank TDK & Maxell tapes for each LP/CD purchase. It seems worth it when I listen to them know. Cassettes and Reel to Reel will remain a source of music for me. To others, they may be the Rodney Dangerfield of recorded media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted March 30, 2003 Author Share Posted March 30, 2003 I think in the early days of CDs recording engineers did not have the correct mastering approach for that medium, as they probably mastered the way they did for vinyl. Add to that the pressure of the record companies to put out as many CDs as fast as possible, the focus was not on quality. Why? They could later made money again by re-issuing Remastered CDs! I believe Craig did an A/B with a Sprinstein CD and record and said there was little to no difference (correct me if I'm wrong here Craig). I have posted here how great some recent new CDs of Jean-Luc Ponte sound...I think they would fare very well in an A/B comparison... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
middlecreekguy Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 I don`t know if you guys remember this but I sure do. When Springsteen`s "The River" was released on CD, it cost $40.00! And it sounded no better than the record. I`m convinced that the digital format released to the public,was way to soon. They should have worked out the bugs first, the mastering aspect I`m talking about. They doubled their money again( they doubled their money the first time by convincing people to dump their old LP`s for CD`s) by selling it sooner than later. Then put out the newly mastered stuff and there you go. Oh, and add those bonus tracks to later reissues and you need to buy the damn thing again. It never stops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted March 30, 2003 Author Share Posted March 30, 2003 Of course, the saga continues now with DVDa, SACD and so on! They get us every time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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