amonteiro Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Its time that I upgrade my receiver. I've narrowed down my choices to the Denon 1803 and the HK 325. I heard that the HK sounds better than the Denon with klipsch speakers. The HK looks better, so at this point I am leaning towards it. Also Is it worth waiting and going up a model to the Denon 2803 or the HK avr-525 or am I not going to miss much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bchild311 Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 If you're budget allows it's always worth the extra money. Well, in most cases. If you can I would recommend the Denon 3803. It's a mean amp for the price. I am biased since I am running the 3802. I haven't ever heard an HK amp with Klipsch's so I have no advice there. But what I can tell you is that the Denon's sound fantastic with the Klipsch components. Let us know what you end up getting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amonteiro Posted May 15, 2003 Author Share Posted May 15, 2003 Right now I'm not going to be able to push the rf-3's too hard because i am living in an apartment. So thats why I thought the lack of power will not be that much of a problem. As far as sound quality and features goes will i be losing much. Also once I wanted to upgrade again I was planning ot just get an amp and use the 1803 as a pre-amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Don't let the lack of watts in the H/K fool you. It may not have as many as the denon, but H/K is known for having high current. I am a H/K user myself and believe me this gear does not lack in any way. It will rattle the house and all that. Also, I have been told the fact that the H/K has higher current, it will produce a cleaner sound. I can't speak for Denon realy. The only denon I have heard was the 3803. It good and all, but I was not able to do an A/B comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dblue Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 I owned a Denon 2802, and now own an HK AVR525. The denon sound OK, but the HK sounds phenomenal. In my opinion, sound quality on the HK is leaps and bounds above the 2802. I have heard that the 3803 sounds a lot better than the 2802, though. Anyway, I recommend the 325. Even at it's rated wattage, it'll push the Klipsches louder than you'll care to listen to, and maintain clarity too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amonteiro Posted May 15, 2003 Author Share Posted May 15, 2003 I don't underestimate the HK's wattage. I do know that they can get pretty loud so it doesn't bother me. If I do make a comparison, I'm really comparing the HK's wattage to other HK units and Denons to other denons. I think the 1803 is ideal because i can get it cheaper then the HK 325 which seems like the comparable model and it seems to have a few more functions but no logic 7, which I don't think I'll miss too much. If I do decide to wait a while and get a receiver in a higher price range it would be either the 525 or the 3803, the 525 is cheaper than the 3803 from what I saw. On another note I am confused since I read the following at http://www.hometheatermag.com/showarchives.cgi?112 "For starters, it's important to understand that the perception of loudness is logarithmic. All things being equal, when you double the amount of power that you feed to your speakers, you get a 3-decibel increase in the sound pressure level at the output: 3 dB is considered to be a noticeable difference in volume. A 10-dB increase is twice as loud. Therefore, the difference between 1 and 2 watts is equal to the difference between 10 and 20 wattslikewise for 100 and 200 watts. So, the next time a salesman tries to tell you that you should step up from a 50-watt receiver to a 75-watt receiver, keep in mind that the change in amplifier power will barely create a noticeable increase in volume." Now comparing the Denon 1803(80watts at 8 ohms) and the 3803(110watts at 8 ohms) it leads me to believe there isn't much difference in power between them. Double 80 is 160 so at 160 watts I would have a 3db difference in output. So there wouldn't actually be that much difference in power between them. The 3803 I believe can drive 7 speakers(which I won't have for a really long time) so it is better in that respect. Now given that there inputs/outputs aren't that different I don't think it would be that worth it to pay so much more for the 3803. Other than the fact that I would be able to drive 7 channels. Am I getting something wrong? Also what does 97db sensitivity really meen in respect to the watts needed to drive them. I know that since they are 97db they are really sensitive as compared to a 88db sensitivity speaker but not exactly what that means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 amonteiro, what kind of music are you streaming on your MP3 server? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amonteiro Posted May 15, 2003 Author Share Posted May 15, 2003 I guess when I say streaming server it implies over the internet which is not the case. I have this software called broadq which streams mp3's and divx files to my ps2 which in turn allows it to be played on my ht system. So basically using a dvd in my ps2 I can use the controller to scroll through songs using my tv. When I want to play something I choose it on the tv the pc streams it to the ps2 which sends it to the receiver and then to the speakes. Works great with mp3's ok with divx. goto http://www.broadq.com if you want more info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Ther is a HUGE difference in the 1803 and 3803,the processing and pre amplification are the important ones.The 3803 shares much in common with the $4000.00 5803.Either HK or Denon will be good w/Klipsch,check features,capability,watts are of nominal import. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amonteiro Posted May 15, 2003 Author Share Posted May 15, 2003 ok that makes more sense. Because there would have to be something to warrant the price difference which the specs really do not tell. I haven't really listened to them side by side. I think what I will do is go down to a store and lsiten to them this weekend. Anyone know of any stores with both denon and hk products in the chicago and surrounding area. Does tweeter have both? Too bad they no longer carry klipsch products. I guess I won't be able to listen to them hooked up to my klipsch's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easylistener Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 My father has the 3802 and I have the 4802 which has some more power.(about 25 I think) But the 4802 shares the same power supply as the 5803. It also plays a lot louder and cleaner than his. This is kind of what the moon is saying by higher current. It is kind of the torque vs. hores power. They go hand and hand. Plus it has some more features than his. The extra money is for a lot of extra things they put in it. You may not see it but it is there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhornKerry Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Lets compare a speaker with a sensitivity of 97dB/1 watt @ 1 meter to a speaker that is 87db/1 watt @ 1 meter. The difference is 10 dB, so the 87 dB speaker would need 10 times the power to sound as loud as the 97 dB speaker. If the difference were 20 dB (77dB sensitivity) it would take 100 times as much power to sound as loud as the 97 db speaker. Low sensitivity speakers require a lot more power to drive them. In short the 88 dB speaker will need 8 times the power to reach the same loudness as the 97 dB speaker Sound pressure level (SPL) for Sound pressure level (SPL) for the 97 dB sensitivity speaker the 88 dB sensitivity speaker 1 watt RMS 97 dB SPL 88 dB SPL 2 watts RMS 100 dB SPL 91 dB SPL 4 watts RMS 103 dB SPL 94 dB SPL 8 watts RMS 106 dB SPL 97 dB SPL 10 watts RMS 107 dB SPL 98 dB SPL 20 watt RMS 110 dB SPL 101 dB SPL 40 watts RMS 113 dB SPL 104 dB SPL 80 watts RMS 116 dB SPL 107 dB SPL 100 watts RMS 117 dB SPL 108 dB SPL 110 watts RMS 117.4 dB SPL 108.4 dB SPL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhornKerry Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 I will try this again, the tabs upset the display. Lets compare a speaker with a sensitivity of 97dB/1 watt @ 1 meter to a speaker that is 87db/1 watt @ 1 meter. The difference is 10 dB, so the 87 dB speaker would need 10 times the power to sound as loud as the 97 dB speaker. If the difference were 20 dB (77dB sensitivity) it would take 100 times as much power to sound as loud as the 97 db speaker. Low sensitivity speakers require a lot more power to drive them. In short the 88 dB speaker will need 8 times the power to reach the same loudness as the 97 dB speaker Sound pressure level (SPL) for the 97 dB sensitivity speaker 1 watt RMS------97dB SPL 2 watts RMS----100 dB SPL 4 watts RMS----103 dB SPL 8 watts RMS----106 dB SPL 10 watts RMS---107 dB SPL 20 watts RMS---110 dB SPL 80 watts RMS---116 dB SPL 100 watts RMS--117 dB SPL 110 watts RMS--117.4 dB SPL -------------------------------- Sound pressure level (SPL) for the 88 dB sensitivity speaker 1 watt RMS------88 dB SPL 2 watts RMS-----91 dB SPL 4 watts RMS-----94 dB SPL 8 watts RMS-----97 dB SPL 10 watts RMS----98 dB SPL 20 watt RMS----101 dB SPL 40 watts RMS---104 dB SPL 80 watts RMS---107 dB SPL 100 watts RMS--108 dB SPL 110 watts RMS--108.4 dB SPL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Good questions, Amonteiro. It is baffling, to be sure. The quote from Home Theater Mag is correct. And really all the hub bub about higher wattage doesn't have that much to do with your normal everday listening at moderate volumes. Most of the time, especially with Klipsch speakers, you are cruising in the 5-10 watt range, if that much. So, doubling the volume (+10db) when you're already listening at a comfortable volume using 5 watts means you'll only need 10 watts to double the volume. If you were pushing 50-75 watts continuously those speakers, you're either melting the speakers (due to clipping more than the speakers inability to handle the wattage) or your eardrums or both. I believe the higher power ratings come into play on those occasions when, due to the demands of the program source and the volume you are listening at, you need extra ooomph to hit those notes without sending the receiver into clipping. So, all things being equal (adequate power supplies, clean power, etc...) it would be preferable, IMO, to have more wattage available. "Also what does 97db sensitivity really meen in respect to the watts needed to drive them. I know that since they are 97db they are really sensitive as compared to a 88db sensitivity speaker but not exactly what that means. " It's like MPG - one watt (or nowadays, 2.83 volts) into the speaker, at 1000hz (typically), measured 1 meter from the speaker front will yield xx decibles of sound. The more efficient the speaker, the more dbs/watt (or volt). In your example, almost twice as loud given the same level of input. So, you can get by with a less powerful amp. DD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Now ain't we all glad we have Klipsch super eff.speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vital Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 For what it's worth I went with the HK 325. I was trying to decide if the 525 was worth the extra $200 and at this point in time it wasnt for me. I put that $200 towards my RF-7s. The 325 has a little less wattage but it still has all the other features, esp the 7.1 that I wanted. I will also tell you that the HK 325 is all the wattage I need for these RF-7s. My entire complex will be jamming out to my system if I crank it up. I tested it a few times when I first got my speakers and I was in shock. It will push crystal clear music louder than I can stand, I'll tell you that. As for Denon vs Harman Kardon, I think you will find both receivers to be excellent. I myself will always be a HK fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksdad Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 listen to moon, denon is ok, just not very musical they just seem to be limited, or holding back. hk really sounds good by comparison, and do not limit your amp by present situations, you will find that having too much is much better than not having enough, just limit YOURSELF! you will find internal limits, presets that by your choosing wont allow volumes to exceed your desired volumes. plus you wont in the future need to have further financial output to get you to the next level, you will be there already, and there are next levels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 It would be nice when people make ridiculous statements(ie.Denon not musical) if they would say IMO.You may think blah, blah,that don't make it fact,its just YOUR opinion,and you know what thats like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 Denon not musical, I beg to differ, come to my living room and I will demonstrate "MUSICAL" for you. My Denon AVR-4800 is more than musical! With the super clean and powerful outboard "Class A" amplifiers that I am using with it I will put you new B&K receiver to shame. If that is your opinion that is fine, but don't make blanket statements that you cannot back up with facts! I have seen the HK 525 and it looks like a plastic kids toy receiver, but then again that is only my opinion. I guess anodized aluminum was too expensive for HK design engineers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amonteiro Posted May 16, 2003 Author Share Posted May 16, 2003 So I went to a store and listened to the Denon 1803 and the denon 3802 yesterday. I watched one of the final fight scenes of the original matrix to see how much difference I could tell. By the way I also saw the 2 matrix last night and it was awesome. Anyway I didn't really listen to any music because I was in somewhat of a hurry. But from what I heard I could tell a difference but not enough for me to double my budget at this time. So I think I'm going to pick up the 1803 tomorrow. I have already bought too many klipsch speakers in the last couple of months to be spending too much on a receiver. And to think all I originally wanted was a couple of speakers so I could listen to music. Now I feel like I want to redesign my living room into a theater. Why didn't I just buy some cheap speakers instead of Klipsch. Ok so from what I understand if I put 1 watt into a 97db speaker, in an ideal world, I would be listening to 97db SPL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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